README.adoc

followed by Ciro's answer to <<zhihu-46957710>>. Ciro could not login anymore, the login screen showed:

____
帐号已停用，请联系：user@zhihu.com
____

So likely someone must have used the fact that this was an edgy personal information release subject issue, and then someone from Zhihu decided to purge Ciro and anyone posts that ever talked about him.

Note that not only the posts made by Ciro himself were deleted: he had never asked any questions or made any Zhuanlan posts himself, only replied to those. But that content made by other users was still removed. Therefore, this is not just a simple user ban, but active censorship.

Ciro's blocked account:

* before deletion: http://web.archive.org/web/20190821075907/https://www.zhihu.com/people/cirosantilli/activities
* after deletion (redirects to login page): http://web.archive.org/web/20191103071033/https://www.zhihu.com/signin?next=http://www.zhihu.com/people/cirosantilli/activities

Random unblocked control account: https://www.zhihu.com/people/lu-zhen-yu-96-65/activities (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103070652/https://www.zhihu.com/people/lu-zhen-yu-96-65/activities[archive]).

Furthermore, all questions related to Ciro, including the posts criticizing him such as https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/25600138[], were taken down. This made Ciro laugh: in China, you can't even criticize that which is censored, or your post also gets taken down.

Ciro then created an anonymous Zhihu account after this event.

====== Ciro Santilli's Zhihu ban 2018-06-25

<<ciro-santilli>> was banned from Zhihu on 2018-06-25 for "politically sensitive" content.

As a result, since that time I will be answering Zhihu questions as issues in this repo with the https://github.com/cirosantilli/china-dictatorship/labels/zhihu[label `zhihu`].

I have however never posted anything politically sensitive on Zhihu, unless my name and profile picture have reached that distinction, and therefore the ban is clearly an unfair per-person ban.

But of course, all is fair in love and war, and politics.

Posting any sensitive content on Chinese websites is a waste of time, since it only means that they will be removed and you will waste time creating a new account, I will never do that.

The only significant content I ever posted on Zhihu is the answer to: https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710/answer/122827944 which is purely technical, and trivial replies on threads that other people have started about me. Have those people been blocked like me?

My posts are still up and it does not appear to be possible for people to see that I have been banned, but whenever I try to take any action on the website a popup appears saying:

____
由于严重违反 知乎社区管理规定 ，该帐号已被永久禁言
____

This includes liking, commenting, answering, asking or trying to update my profile to say that I have been blocked.

This message also shows on my public page for everyone to see: https://www.zhihu.com/people/cirosantilli/activities but they use some JavaScript scheme complicated enough that archive.is cannot capture it.

I still get notifications however, but I am unable to reply to them, specially given that all Chinese accounts, unlike mine, have no personal identifiable information due to the understandable fear Chinese citizens have of their own government (even though such accounts https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/27/china-doubles-down-on-real-name-registration-laws-forbidding-anonymous-online-posts/[might be illegal in theory to my understanding]).

The only action that I can take now is to report abusive comments people make to me.

Obviously, the only effect of such ban is that I will create an anonymous account under Tor with a second cell phone if I wish to contribute in the future, and China will have less information about my political interests than before.

The private messages the website sends while banning you are:

____
知乎管理员 ：您好，根据用户举报，您的帐号发布了「政治敏感」内容，帐号已根据知乎社区规范被永久禁言。处理详情可查看社区服务中心。具体规范请查看知乎社区管理规定。 6月25日 16:37 回复 | 删除

知乎管理员 ：您好，根据用户举报，您的部分个人信息由于不符合知乎用户信息管理规范已被重置。用户名可以在设置页面中修改，修改后会自动进入审核等待通过；其他个人信息可以在个人主页中编辑。感谢您对知乎社区的理解和支持。 6月25日 16:37 回复 | 删除
____

Those messages contain links to: https://www.zhihu.com/terms2 | http://archive.is/wdXSz and https://www.zhihu.com/question/19551824 | http://archive.is/BrgV2

The ban came soon after I posted a link to my GitHub repo as a comment at: https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/21/ice-employee-list-github-linkedin/ maybe they are related.

====== Who reported Ciro Santilli on Zhihu

At the same time the ban happened I received a public comment from user "Eureka" https://www.zhihu.com/people/crb912/activities | http://archive.is/1F3t6 on this thread: https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710 | http://archive.is/PVOLd saying:

____
你滥用了github， 也滥用了Stackover。这个一个纯粹计算机、编程和知识分享的地方，请不要带入政治性的色彩。请不要这么做， 维护社区的非政治性、中立和技术性纯粹，是每个热爱cs的人应尽的义务。
____

I am unable to get an URL that shows the comment on archive.is, so I have no proof of this claim. If you trust me, then here is a screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/YCiEEax

Since I expect the ban lists to be private, I find it extremely likely that this was the user who reported me, unless both were simultaneously triggered by a third event which I have not seen. So correct me if I'm wrong here.

Users with the same user id `crb912`, related "Eureka" username or same profile picture, can be found at:

* https://www.weibo.com/crb912 (unable to archive)
* https://github.com/crb912 | http://archive.is/heGfd which suggests a possible real name

By Googling the email found on the GitHub repos, we find: http://www.360doc.com/content/15/0809/11/25724933_490492490.shtml | http://archive.is/2UnGL which might, at last, contain a photo of my nemesis.

My public message to the reporter whomever he may be:

____
While you have also raised issues that were raised a thousand times before, and clearly answered in the FAQ, at least you were able to take some actual action leading to an actual ban, and I respect you for that.

I hope that one day you will redirect that cunning and initiative towards taking down the root cause of the problem, which are the Chinese communist Party and their Firewall themselves.
____

===== Zhihu questions related to Ciro Santilli

Parent section: <<backlinks-to-this-repository>>

All Zhihu posts related to Ciro Santilli were deleted following <<zhihu-purge>>. Some had been deleted before.

* 2019-06-12: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/68869259 (http://web.archive.org/web/20190905071450/https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/68869259[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103072349/https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/68869259[archive after deletion])) "德国极端分子黑我们大中国！犯我中华者，虽远必诛！！". Ciro wonders why the poster thought Ciro was German.
* 2019-03: https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700162 (http://archive.is/ewxqb[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065512/http://web.archive.org/screenshot/https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700162[archive after deletion])) "如何看待Github Trending上Ciro Santilli的众多开源项目？". Due to: https://github.com/cirosantilli/x86-bare-metal-examples being featured on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19428700
* 2018-11: https://www.zhihu.com/question/302738350 (http://archive.is/lkQxS[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065759/https://www.zhihu.com/question/302738350[archive after deletion])) "如何评价Ciro Santilli对Stack Overflow和GitHub的扰乱？"
* 2017-03-07: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/25600138 (http://archive.is/DkooN[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065808/https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/25600138[archive after deletion])) "StackOverflow 上的一个智障用户"
** 2017-03 https://sololand.moe/2017/03/06/brain-fucked-user-on-stackoverflow (http://web.archive.org/save/https://sololand.moe/2017/03/06/brain-fucked-user-on-stackoverflow/[archive]) by https://github.com/brglng/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20180802090918/https://github.com/brglng/[archive]) "StackOverflow 上的一个智障用户"
* 2015-08-18: http://www.zhihu.com/question/34775392 (https://web.archive.org/web/20160219094646/https://www.zhihu.com/question/34775392[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065816/https://www.zhihu.com/question/34775392[archive after deletion])) "你们怎么看stackoverflow上某人故意屏蔽中国访问的事件？"

A random control question that shows that archive.org 404's are actually deleted questions: https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700165 (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065449/https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700165[archive]).

Mentions not yet deleted as of writing:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/21099730 从知乎建站以来被封禁的用户都有哪些？Since Zhihu's founding, which accounts have been blocked on the website? (http://web.archive.org/web/20200112103049/https://www.zhihu.com/question/21099730[archive]) (http://archive.is/dH9pK[archive]). The top answer contains a list, and a brief explanation of why some of them were banned:
** Ciro Santilli: S/O 红人 (fStack Overflow celebrity)
** "ww" in explanations means "big laugh" according to: https://hinative.com/zh-CN/questions/8349706 because a single "w" means a small laugh
** several accounts are linked to one specific answer or comment
** other accounts are classified as often commenting on politically sensitive material (政治敏感)

[[zhihu-46957710]]
====== github.com@cirosantilli 是谁维护的，为什么会收集邮箱地址？

https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710 (http://archive.is/PVOLd[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065828/https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710[archive after deletion])).

Asked in 2016-09 after Ciro published: https://github.com/cirosantilli/all-github-commit-emails

Deleted after <<zhihu-purge>>. Ciro's answer before deletion:

____
你用的git config user.email当然是公开的：谁都会git clone就知道了。

问题就是git repository很大，我们不会都clone.

但是github有一个API，收集很多信息，包括邮件。

然后，Google用了那个API给他们的https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/...信息。

BigQuery对程序员很容易提取信息，是我用的。

我发表邮件以后，两个东西变化了：

1. Google 把邮件从BigQuery删除
2. GitHub 更新他们的隐私声明GitHub Privacy Statement

这就是我的木比：保护人们的隐私权

我的README.md更详细地解释。
____

==== Quora

https://www.quora.com/profile/Ciro-Santilli

* 2016 blocked Chinese keywords on both my username and credentials. Justification: non-English.
* 2017 created on in English: Cook Tiananmen Square Noodle Shop.
+
Added my Noodle shop to maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Tiananmen+Square+Noodle+Shop/@60.6132538,15.6687509,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x94603408e3c63fb3!8m2!3d60.6132538!4d15.6687509
+
Leaches that picked it up: http://kvalster.se/Falu/Uthyres/Lagenheter/Gammelvagen_49_1417351

[[ptt]]
==== PTT Bulletin Board System 批踢踢實業坊

Popular <<taiwan,Taiwanese>> forum system and server from 1995, pre HTML, works from telnet terminal, so likely very programmer heavy, and ovbiouvly anti-CCP.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%89%B9%E8%B8%A2%E8%B8%A2

Ciro Santilli's appearances on PTT:

* 2020-01-31: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1580484253.A.37A.html "stackoverflow菁英卻痛恨中國" by https://pttweb.tw/user/Eric0605/["Eric0605 (我還有點餓)"] on the Gossiping board
* 2017-06-19 https://pttweb.tw/s/2K9zV "Ciro Santilli 709大抓捕 六四事件 法轮" on the Gossiping board
* 2016-10-03 https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Soft_Job/M.1478104872.A.916.html "Github也出現網軍了嗎?" by gocreating on the Soft_Job board

Archaic, fucking impossible to learn how to use. Ciro Santilli hasn't managed yet, so if you want a reply from him, open an issue on this repo instead.

TODO: can anyone comment, without having a Taiwanese university address? This suggests no: https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/1etbvb/anyone_on_pttcc_advice_suggestions/ Also asked at:

* https://www.quora.com/unanswered/Can-you-comment-on-the-PTT-Bulletin-Board-System-at-ptt-cc-from-Taiwan-without-working-or-studying-at-a-Taiwanese-university
* https://github.com/cirosantilli/china-dictatorship/issues/92

Normal people see it on a web viewer hosted on: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/index.html

However it is fucking impossible to web archive that web interface because there is a cookie I'm 18-years-old confirmation before the first connection.

This shows how to connect for the first time: https://www.ptt.cc/index.firstbbs.html

One attempt is:

....
luit -encoding big5 telnet ptt.cc
....

But the main page says:

"本站目前暫停開放新帳號註冊。" "This site is currently suspended for new account registration."

And you try `new` it says: "目前無法註冊帳號![按任意鍵繼續]" "Account cannot be registered at this time."

OK, ptt2 went further:

....
luit -encoding big5 telnet ptt2.cc
....

Then there is a registration process that seem to require you to prove that you work at Taiwanese university, but not sure it is mandatory to post.

But I couldn't find Gossiping there either, which is the only board that matters, so not sure it is on this server.

=== Christianity

The commies are not a fan. But as someone once told me: the commies are not a fan of a bunch of things!

As mentioned at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China there are only a few state approved churches under total CCP control, and the others are forbidden. For example one of them is called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Patriotic_Catholic_Association[Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association]! God and CCP on the same sentence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII[Pope Pius XII] excommunicated people from that organization who were appointing new Bishops!

* 2018-12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWApdCNdik 100 Christians detained in China crackdown
* 2018-09 Vatican Christian pope makes deal with China
+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Holy_See_relations#September_2018_Holy_See%E2%80%93China_Agreement
+
.<<rebel-pepper>> 2018-09 cartoon showing the Pope with a Christian cross containing the Hammer and Sickle communist symbol, in reference to one of the accords that the Vatican struck with the Chinese government. https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/vatican-china-cartoon-09282018102133.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20180930134934im_/https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/vatican-china-cartoon-09282018102133.html/180927RFA-vatican-china.jpg/@@images/190bb54e-d6be-4c98-9599-b4a88aa6b959.jpeg[height=400]
* 2018-01 Chinese authorities demolish Christian mega-church "Golden Lampstand" sparking fears of religious persecution
** https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-mega-church-in-crackdown-2018-1
+
.China's Golden Lampstand Church being demolished. https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-mega-church-in-crackdown-2018-1[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191013080937if_/https://image.businessinsider.com/5a572ca3a75e205e138b4b5f?width=1300&format=jpeg&auto=webp[height=400]
* 2016 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/world/asia/china-zhejiang-christians-pastor-crosses.html pastor 14 years jail
* 2015 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/christians-in-china-feel-full-force-of-authorities-repression/2015/12/23/7dd0ec5a-a736-11e5-b596-113f59ee069a_story.html

.<<rebel-pepper>> 2018-09 cartoon showing Jesus and the Apostles in the Last Supper being arrested by CCP guards. https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/china-crackddown-Christianity-cartoon-09072018150421.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191012075042im_/https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/china-crackddown-Christianity-cartoon-09072018150421.html/180907RFA_thelastsupperinChina_1000.jpg/@@images/ac0553ed-a46d-43f6-98d8-288ce76901af.jpeg[height=400]

.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Hongtu[Zhang Hongtu] cartoon showing <<mao-zedong,Mao Zedong>> and other communist officials at the Last Supper instead of Jesus and the Apostles. http://musicandculture.blogspot.com/2010/03/massive-last-supper-parodies-post.html[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20191107094724if_/http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_W8pwMnZMNuQ/S5YAJmo1Q1I/AAAAAAAAC_A/YKRCKXUiSAM/s1600/meal.jpg[height=400]

[[gay-rights]]
=== Gay rights LGBT权利

Yes, gay people are also <<fear-of-west,discriminated to different degrees in Western countries>>, and even legally prohibited notably in the Islamic world.

But <<intolerance,like all minorities>>, they are generally more fucked in <<dictatorship,dictatorships>>, since they can be easily crushed by majorities.

Therefore, all gay people must be against the CCP:

* 2020-01-07 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/why-china-raising-prospect-same-sex-marriage-n1109471 "Why is China raising the prospect of same-sex marriage?"
* 2018 Weibo temporary homosexual ban:
** 2018-04-16 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/16/china-weibo-bans-homosexual-content-protest "China's Weibo reverses ban on 'homosexual' content after outcry", hashtags `#iamgay` and `#iamgaynotapervert`
** 2018-04-13 https://www.whatsonweibo.com/weibos-new-online-guidelines-no-homosexuality-allowed/
* 2017-07-16 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40610679 "Chinese gay video ban sparks online backlash"
** 2017-06-30 http://www.whatsonweibo.com/new-rules-online-videos-china-no-displays-homosexuality/ "New Rules for Online Videos in China: "No Displays of Homosexuality""
* 2016-03-04 https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/mar/04/china-bans-gay-people-television-clampdown-xi-jinping-censorship "China bans depictions of gay people on television". One of the most prominent series banned was link:++https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addicted_(web_series)++[Addicted (2016, 上瘾)].
+
.Widely distributed still from the Addicted 2016 series which was banned showing a presumably gay couple lying in bed. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/mar/04/china-bans-gay-people-television-clampdown-xi-jinping-censorship[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/save/_embed/https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e46c18a434972d717b3aa03e8ea4ef835d1c1e31/318_0_1809_1086/master/1809.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=f358c97022133c523489fa55dbe7273b[height=400]

See also:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中国同性恋史
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/各地LGBT权利

.Lesbian couple kissing in <<tiananmen,Tiananmen Square>> with Mao's painting and confused/disgusted guards in the background who are likely about to call their superiors to ask what they should do. The photo likely surfaced in 2006 http://web.archive.org/web/20200301224434/https://www.salon.com/2006/01/17/lesbians_china/[as mentioned] in link:++https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(website)++[salon.com] which said it came form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boing_Boing[Boing Boing]. It was not however picked up by any major website. Ciro actually thought this could have been ripped from some television series due to the amazing expression on the guards' faces. TODO: find the original Chinese source, translate the watermarks, and see if their identity is known. http://web.archive.org/web/20200301223317/http://www.chinatoday.com/entertain/tiananmen_kiss.htm[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20200301223317im_/http://www.chinatoday.com/entertain/china.funny.pictures/tiananmen.kiss_1.jpg[height=500]

.<<throne,Qing dynasty>> (18th–19th c.) panel from a scroll showing two men engaging in foreplay, apparently present located in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Institute[Kinsey Institute] as of 2005. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Love_play_in_China.jpg[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Love_play_in_China.jpg[height=400]

[[falun-gong]]
=== Falun Gong 法輪大法

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

<<flg-religion,Religion>> created in the 80's by a Chinese dude called <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>.

With the support of the Communist Party to Qigong movements, it reached 70 million believers in 1999, at which point the commies decided they had to be shut down and banned the religion.

Li fled to the USA and lives near New York, where he continues to run the religion as of 2020.

==== Falun Gong is not important to be worth discussing

The main reason I emphasise FLG it that is shows how the CCP can mercilessly crush a 70M strong group (according to CCPs own statistics) out of a population of 1.3B in 2000, i.e. 5% of the population.

If that is correct, I'm curious to understand what you consider an important movement? :-)

Anything much larger would take down the government and change China's history forever.

OK, maybe the fact that 69M of those were likely old ladies didn't help much either. Tip to next <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>: make something that appeals to aspiring military officers.

And of course: <<flg-bias>>

Let's try to gather some well sourced footage showing huge numbers of believers on the streets:

* http://www.aparchive.com/search?query=falun%20gong&from=1&orderBy=OldestFirst#7e34a6 AP Archive: could not find a good one there

.Thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in Guangzhou, China, 1998. https://www.theepochtimes.com/finding-the-balance-between-ancient-and-modern_2248694.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/save/_embed/https://img.theepochtimes.com/assets/uploads/2017/05/10/GuangzhouPractice_big-700x420.jpg[height=600]

.Thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in Liaoning Industrial Exhibition, China, likely 1998. https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2016/5/21/157091.html[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20191108081906im_/http://falunau.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/1a1744bca5595d8dc0c0aa3ca1280f04.jpg[height=600]

.Hundreds of Falun Gong believers in Chengdu, China, 1998. https://faluninfo.net/falun-gong-the-practice/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/save/_embed/https://faluninfo.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/chengdu.jpg[height=500]

==== Do you believe in or practice Falun Gong?

No, I'm agnostic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Here are some things that I don't like about Falun Gong for example: <<things-i-personally-dislike-about-flg>>.

I think that FLG exercises and meditation are good for you, just like many other meditative practices such as Yoga, Buddhist meditation, Tai chi, deep Catholic prayer, etc.

However I find the metaphysics and obligations boring like for any other prophetic xref:flg-religion[religion].

The absolute truth is already known by the xref:li-hongzhi[prophet], although he does not want to give clear evidence for reasons. Or a Jesus put it in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4&version=NIV[Luke 4]:

____
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

“'He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
____

Ah good old prophets, their tricks haven't changed a bit in 2 thousand years!

And you just repeat these truth over and over and over:

* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Aliens]
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-organized[You can support FLG by doing X and Y, why wouldn't you since you are saving other people?]
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Alternate dimensions]
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-medication[Maybe FLG will make you healthier, but no promises, but it will make you a better person, and that's why you should do it, but if you really really believe, you get healthier]
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* Non-followers are like this, FLG people are like that. Although non-followers who do good things are actually doing FLG without knowing it. Note: FLG even has a specific terminology for non-believers, which is translated in English as https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_new_4.html["ordinary-people"]. Like other aspects of FLG however, this appears in other religions, e.g. my mother mentioned the funny term used by her Protestant's group term but I forgot it, and you can see it in Harry Potter as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggle[The Muggles].
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Final judgement]
* FLG is good

I would really like to know if <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> really believes in FLG, or is just a complete manipulating charlatan, but unfortunately we will never know that.

Just imagine if before he died he published a video saying: "it was a joke, gotcha!". Now that would be **epic**!

Since I'm good natured, it's hard for me to believe that he doesn't believe in anything, how can anyone be that evil? Maybe he believes in part of it, but made up some stuff to sell it better, maybe with good intentions that selling the fake part would also lead more people to see the good part?

Like any other prophetic religion, FLG gives tiny evidence that you can directly feel through meditation. The energies, which I believe are real feelings. And then using that entry point asks you to believe a whole lot more, that you can't feel.

This becomes especially strong when a critical mass of believers is reached, and then they start interpreting all sorts of events as miracles, and you start to believe other believers without questioning them, and a circle is formed.

This post by a former believer gives what I feel is a realistic account that matches my observations: https://medium.com/@Ben_D_Hurley/-10677166298b "Me and Li" by Ben Hurley published on October 23, 2017.

And yet, all those who love freedom, must oppose FLG ban, or be themselves enslaved by tyrants themselves: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

In any case, at least FLG got one thing right: the commies are <<is-the-chinese-government-is-evil,evil>>, and we have to get rid of them.

See also: <<flg-is-fake>>.

[[flg-bias]]
==== Do you support FLG just because your wife and mother-in-law do it?

Not consciously, I think I would likely support them even if I didn't have family ties to FLG.

Likely I wouldn't have started this campaign if I didn't know them of course.

But of course, this is impossible to answer objectively.

But don't you think that <<falun-gong-is-not-important-to-be-worth-discussing,**70 Million** people (6% of the total population in 2000!)>> getting completely squashed by the Party illustrates extremely well the dangers of the dictatorship?

With that in mind, I try my best to give FLG only the right level of exposure I think it deserves relative to other events, according to these guidelines: <<keyword-choice>>

If more recent events of mass human rights violation happen, especially affecting in the order of tens of million people, I will probably rank higher than Falun Gong, this was the case for <<xinjiang,Xinjiang in 2019>> for example, even though it only affected a measly million.

==== How much do you know about Falun Gong's claims?

I haven't read their <<flg-canon,canon>> myself, no patience, but I have constant contact with believers and so have an idea of its content.

[[flg-canon]]
==== What are the canonical Falun Gong texts?

It appears that Falun Gong cannon is present at: http://falundafa.org/

It contains <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>'s approved texts / speech transcriptions, which are sacred.

The only sacred version is Chinese which is a sacred language, and of which there is only one perfect revision. Islam also appears to place great importance on the sacredness of Arabic in which Mohamed first spoke, perhaps even more: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/plight-uyghurs-why-muslims-wont-speak-their-brethren-112466 Protestants and later the Catholic church, have moved away from such really bad strategy however, the accessibility of Christianity is seen on the entrance of many many churches which have a sign "ALL are welcome". Well played.

I think <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> claims the specifically chose to reincarnate in China this time.

The English translation is made by followers, and gets new revisions to reduce translation imperfection.

However, the Chinese language seems to be fundamentally sacred, and there might never be an sacred English version approved by LHZ.

LHZ is of course a de-facto God with superpowers, and can of course speak all languages, but for reasons he didn't just write an English translation himself.

This is a reasonable command to download the English cannon for grepping:

....
wget -r -l inf --no-remove-listing --no-clobber --no-parent -w 2 https://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-books.html
....

TODO: need to find a way to wrap lines, otherwise grep might fail on sentences.

Nothing else is canonical. LHZ seems to have said that there are enlightened followers, but has not specified who, so we can't derive canon from anyone else.

Notably, <<flg-organized,FLG media>> such as http://www.minghui.org/ is believer led and thus not canonical, even though believers have very high confidence on it, and LHZ <<flg-organized,directly supports it>>.

==== Do you support FLG, or just use it because it is a censored?

I don't support FLG specifically, only freedom of religion.

I use it in my usernames simply because it is the most banned and censored one in China today.

I believe that individuals should only be put in jail for what they do, not for what they believe.

I consider FLG <<flg-religion,a religion like any other>>, and I am against its ban, as I am for all other religions.

Also I believe that freedom of speech and democracy imply that FLG and other religions will exist. If you want freedom, you have to <<intolerance,accept other people's choices>>.

Otherwise, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy and communism can also be considered as religions>>, and banned.

See also: <<flg-verifiable>>.

[[flg-daily]]
==== How is it like to live with Falun Gong believers?

This will obviously vary from believer to believer, but here my experience.

Like any other religion that is taken seriously, they spend several hours per week doing their standard religious activities: <<flg-religion>>.

I have never seen them, or anyone we know from FLG say or do something that I consider morally incorrect because of FLG.

This does not prevent <<wife,my wife>> from working normally.

My mother-in-law, who is retired, dedicates all her time to Falun Gong when she is not taking care of the house.

My mother is also religious (link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism[Protestant]), and I get a very similar feeling about both groups.

Like other religions, Falun Gong gives them meaning in life, and I admire that they pursue their belief energetically.

I much prefer that my mother-in-law does Falun Gong, which is a noble meaningful goal, rather than watch stupid crap on television.

Also, although I am <<do-you-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>, I also live in a similar way.

My religion is that of science and technology, and I pursue it fervently by trying to learn and teach it and spend several hours a week doing that, even when it does not give me money immediately.

If I pursue my meaning, why should I prevent anyone from pursuing theirs?

Previously, my wife and mother-in-law would sometimes try to persuade me to learn FLG, which was annoying.

But every time I told them very clearly that I know where to download the books if I want to, and that I may never want to read them, and that my wife must either accept this fact of leave me.

And they have accepted that: they think I'm a good person, and they can accept that you can also be a good person even without doing FLG.

I do feel Falun Gong makes my mother-in-law more reluctant to use or actively search for <<flg-medication,medication or treatment>>. But I think it is also linked to the fact that she didn't have a very good education or a good health system around. However, if we give her something, she will take it. My wife does not have any resistance to medication.

One thing that does worry me is that my mother in law sleeps too little every night, doing one of the Falun Gong meditations late in the evening, and then waking up very early to a long series of reading and exercise sessions.

Bibliography:

* http://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795 (https://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795[archive])家里有人练法轮功是一种怎样的体验？

==== In the Tweet about his mother in law, Ciro Santilli says "correctional facility", but reeducation through labour has been abolished

He was not very precise https://twitter.com/cirosantilli/status/579270450984984576[here], the precise term is "jail". He was _not_ talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor Unfortunately it is not possible to edit a Tweet.

[[flg-changed]]
==== Falun Gong is completely different in the West than it was in China

I believe that it has changed.

But isn't that the case of every cultural religious movement that migrates to a completely new culture?

Main points which may have changed:

* It has become more organized.
+
But why shouldn't they organize to defend themselves now that they have the chance without being put into prison?
+
The CCP is highly organized and has way more resources.
* Less emphasis is given to the religious / mystical aspect, and more to the corporal exercises, and health aspect.
+
This may be because people in the "West" are:
+
** are "scientific-educated" atheists who wouldn't go for a "religion"
** already have other religions, which would view FLG as a taboo

Also maybe only the richest and most educated believers managed to escape China, and thus the movement carried that bias outside China.

If you know more ways in which it may have changed, let me know.

But once again, we can know nothing for sure about the past in China because of censorship.

Even if you saw something yourself, how can you be sure that it is representative?

And if it has changed, now that it has changed, maybe China should unban it?

==== FLG has been funded by the US government at least once, therefore it is evil

1.5M USD in 2010 for a FLG controlled internet freedom group http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8678760.stm

But well, if you are going to do something anyways, and someone offers you money, why wouldn't you take it?

Taking the money does of course give a "bad impression" that someone is trying to buy influence, but does it in itself imply that you are doing something bad?

But do you really think that the US government paid that to buy influence in FLG? What would they force upon that FLG group that they didn't already want to do? Isn't it more likely that the US government wanted them to continue doing exactly what they were doing?

Every government funds groups it supports, it is an all out war I suppose. Compare that to the propaganda funds of the CCP.

What about the funding of political campaigns, which vastly outnumbers 1.5M USD every year?

[[follow-the-law]]
==== FLG is illegal in China, we must follow the law

This might be a bad law that should be changed.

It was perfectly legal for <<nazi,Nazis>> to kill Jews. Does it make that right?

==== FLG is fake

The same can be argued about any other religion or political belief of type: it is better if we organize society in this or that way.

How can you disprove their belief, when as in any other religion, every affirmation made hinges on "miracles only happen around when true believers are around" or "only true believers can perceive evidence in their hearts / minds directly". He died of cancer? Not a true believer.

Conversely, do you understand the full sequence of experiments that imply quantum field theory? Have you seen videos of those experiments? Have you attended live demonstrations? Do you understand the construction of the experimentation apparatus? Yet, why do you believe it?

More importantly: what do you propose that should be done about it? Should we kill followers? Or is jail enough?

Also do let me know when you have achieved irrefutable proof that democracy / freedom of speech are the optimal ways to organize the government: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

See also: <<flg-religion>>

[[flg-verifiable]]
===== FLG never makes any predictions that can be reasonably verified by non-believers

Exactly, just like any other <<flg-religion>>, this is why I'm <<do-you-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>.

The closest claims to observable I've heard are:

* when pictures are taken in sacred events, notably Shen Yun, sometimes you can see magic Falun energy wheels in the pictures
* in the homes of some followers, small magic good plants-like fungi-like things have grown
* the sacred books of some believers had a closed lotus flower when they were bought, and after several years, the flower opened

but I suspect they are not even <<flg-canon,canon>>, just believer oral culture.

Of course, like every other religion, reality happens to be is constructed in a way that prevents non-believers to verify anything with their eyes in a reproducible way.

===== FLG is a very new religion and therefore fake

The Romans called <<christianity>> the "Cult of Jesus".

If I tell a lie today, will it become true in a thousand years? Or a truth today become a lie?

Try sending an email to <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> asking him to prove his powers to you :-)

[[against-censorship-and-flg]]
==== Many people both are against censorship and FLG

I know that, and that supporting FLG is "bad" for my public image with most Chinese, including those that are against censorship.

But without censorship, there will be democracy, and with democracy FLG followers will have voting rights, and FLG will become legal.

I think the situation is very similar to Scientology in the USA today: most people dislike it, but believe that you can believe whatever you want.

Democracy and Communism <<democracy-is-a-religion,can also be considered as religions and persecuted>>.

Isn't it convenient when a dictatorship gets rid of those weirdos for you? But not so much when suddenly you or your family is the weirdo...

If you are not ready to accept the beliefs of others, dictatorship is the only choice for you.

See also: <<flg-bias>>

[[democracy-is-a-religion]]
===== Why do you say that democracy is a religion just like FLG?

Because it also specifies irrational and fundamental aspects of how one should live, notably voting and freedom of speech.

Like the Cult of CCP has one fundamental belief: <<stability,the Party is always right>>.

Ban FLG, and you have banned democracy.

Accept democracy, and you will have FLG.

[[flg-stability]]
===== Falun Gong had to be banned because it was a threat to the stability of the country

Then they link to the Taping Rebellion:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

Of course FLG it was a threat to the stability of the country.

It is, as <<ciro-santilli>> has said, a highly organized political power: <<flg-political>>.

However, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy>> is a threat to the stability country in the exact same way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

Anything that goes against a dictatorship is a threat to the stability of the country.

Now read: <<stability>>

==== Many people say they do FLG only to get VISAs to the USA

Heard this a few times, and I believe it has happened.

But I don't see how this is relevant at all to this discussion:

* if they are not really FLG believers, they should be prosecuted, but this says nothing about the real FLG believers,
* if they are, then why wouldn't they seek a VISA, since they are in constant threat of going to jail or worse in China, and the USA law gives them that right?

Sample news:

* https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/09/28/652218318/thousands-could-be-deported-as-government-targets-asylum-mills-clients

[[flg-witness]]
==== I have personally seen people do bad things because of Falun Gong

Either direct suicide or <<flg-medication,dying because of not taking medication>>.

First, I'm not saying I don't believe you, and I'm sorry about what happened.

But your testimony is worthless unless you give the following:

* clear unique personal identification
+
This is because the CCP has thousands of wumaos who could make fake reports.
+
There are basically two ways to do that:
+
.  your testimony is done in video form on YouTube clearly showing your face as you make it
.  links between a notable social media presence that is hard to achieve, e.g. Twitter with many followers, Stack overflow with a lot of rep, and the account
+
Either of those must contain / link to information that uniquely identifies you. Generally, full name, city and date of birth is enough.
* a precise testimony that states exactly what you saw happen with your own eyes, or heard from people that are very close to you.
+
The testimony must include:
+
--
** when the events happened
** where they happened, in which city at the very least
** the full names of who did what
--
+
This is to:
+
** make it easier to verify the truth of the event
** uniquely identify the event so we don't count a single event multiple times

If you do provide all of the above, I add your report to a list of reports that I will maintain. This list does not exist yet because there were no valid reports yet.

Next consider this:

* are you sure that Falun Gong made the person do the bad thing, and that the person wouldn't have done it anyways?
+
Did someone from Falun Gong told the person to do it?
+
I bet that if you look into patients of psychiatrists, you will find more suicides than average. So should we ban psychiatry?
* are you sure that the order came from <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>, and that it was not just some disgruntled local leader using Falun Gong for his personal madness and doing things he did not approve?
+
Branch Davidians were inspired by <<christianity>>. So should we ban Christianity? What about the majority of Christians who have never done anything bad?
* only statistics has any meaning, and it would require a very large number of reports to make up statistics, so you will likely be wasting your time. I will do my part and maintain a list however.
* if ask for FLG believers to compile a list of horrors they have suffered, which they have already been doing since the start of the persecution, I bet that their list will be much longer than yours, because they are so <<flg-organized,well organized>>

[[flg-persecution]]
==== FLG does not have proof of their persecution claims

How much proof do you think they would be able to get when there is no freedom of press?

Do you think that forbidding a <<falun-gong-is-not-important-to-be-worth-discussing,70 million>> person religion could have gone smoothly?

Do you think the thousands of personal of accounts of human rights violations that exist are all fake, and don't indicate that many, many more have taken place but fallen under censorship?

Conversely, there is no reliable proof that FLG is bad as claimed by CCP that has been verified by international media.

==== Someone from movement X did something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

By this logic, everyone should go to jail. The law should only punish individuals.

The communist party, which has had continuous power since 1949, killed millions during the <<cultural-revolution>>. Surely they must be banned, no?

But the CCP has changed so much since those days, I hear you say.

I agree. And <<flg-changed,so has FLG>>.

===== Movement X tells people to do something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

E.g. kill.

Yes, convincing someone to do something bad is as bad as doing it yourself of course, and must be forbidden.

Now proceed to prove that FLG made and will continue making people do bad things, going through:

* <<flg-witness>>
* <<flg-changed>>

[[flg-political]]
==== People from movement X are only in it for political power

For every desire of the masses, there will be amoral representatives that will step to use that power.

Still, those representatives cannot gain power if there is no backing desire from the society.

The only advantage of <<richer,democracy>>, is that those representatives have to pretend harder to do things for that group to retain their power.

===== FLG supports Donald Trump

<<ciro-santilli>> believes he has heard praises to Trump directly in <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>'s speeches, but could not find a source.

Also, the <<flg-organized,Epoch Times Falun Gong controlled newspaper>> has donated: $1.5 million https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/trump-qanon-impending-judgment-day-behind-facebook-fueled-rise-epoch-n1044121

But of course, so long as those respect the laws of the country, they are free to do it and must not be interfered. As if other major American media didn't have political agendas.

It is therefore extremely likely that 99.999% of Falun Gong believers also support Trump.

This is exactly the same, in fact, as <<flg-religion,Christian groups>> which always gather behind "the right".

In the case of the Falun Gong however, Trump has been vocal about China's threat, and therefore is a much needed ally of the movement.

Trump's immigration policies have turned Asian Americans towards the democrat opposition however as of 2019: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/13/18308137/asian-american-voters-immigration-democrats-donald-trump

One saving point of the republicans for Asians is the opposition to university quotas instance, which many Asians feel blocks their high performing kids from top schools for less deserving Black students. This also plays into possible cross Asian-Black racism tensions.

==== Western media has exaggerated reports on FLG for propaganda reasons

Possibly true, but which reports are you talking about specifically?

All that I care about is:

* it is censored today
* if you do it you go to jail
* there were tens of millions of followers at the time of the ban

which I think are undeniable.

The only question that matters is: should it be banned or not?

==== Do you believe in the allegations of human rights violations done to Falun Gong believers?

Let's just focus on the evidence:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CedVnJOgwg4&feature=youtu.be "Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps" by "FOX 11 Los Angeles" published May 21, 2019. Names mentioned: Fuquan Yin,

===== Do you believe in the allegations of organ harvesting made by Falun Gong believers?

In short: I believe that it has happened to many people.

Long version:

It is obviously very hard to prove and quantify it definitely, much like it was hard to prove the Holocaust: bodies were cremated, and bribes were paid.

Even if we had a video showing the whole process, showing the whole money flow from donor to prison guard, it would still be hard to quantify it, so I do have some room for doubt in this opinion.

But consider the following, which is based on what I heard.

Even Chinese officials have admitted that in the past, if the body of the executed person is not claimed by family, then the organs can be extracted even without the consent of the prisoner:

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/china-still-using-executed-prisoners-organs-transplants-vatican
* https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-face-of-criticism-china-has-been-cleaning-up-its-organ-transplant-industry/2017/09/14/d689444e-e1a2-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html

Perhaps now that they claim that there is a large voluntary organ donor database, then this has stopped or been reduced, but let's focus on that period when the extractions were widely done.

From this, even though China does not publish execution statistics, we can imagine that a large part of the organs come from prisoners sentenced to death.

Then, consider that a <<falun-gong-is-not-important-to-be-worth-discussing,70 million>> person religion was banned, leading to a huge influx of prisoners from that religion.

FLG followers are just de-facto criminals like any other, and so extracting their organs is also de-facto legal.

Also, people from that religion don't drink alcohol, smoke or take drugs, and their organs are of good quality.

Furthermore, FLG prisoners continue to not bow down to the government even in prison, e.g. by doing their <<flg-religion,Falun Gong meditation>>, which makes them clearly identifiable and dangerous to the system.

Finally, add to that mix the huge level of corruption found in dictatorships.

Don't you think, then, that it is extremely likely that it has happened many times that such people have been selected to be executed earlier than others on average, due to the monetary value of their organs?

Bibliography:

* https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6 (https://web.archive.org/web/20191118135832/https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6[archive]) "Analysis of official deceased organ donation data casts doubt on the credibility of China’s organ transplant reform" by Matthew P. Robertson, Raymond L. Hinde and Jacob Lavee published at "BMC Medical Ethics" which is part of Springer Nature in 14 November 2019
* The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China's Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ehtan Gutmann, 2014
** <https://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Killings-Harvesting-Solution-Dissident/dp/161614940X>
** <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Gutmann#The_Slaughter:_Mass_Killings,_Organ_Harvesting,_and_China's_Secret_Solution_to_Its_Dissident_Problem>

====== 2018 China Tribunal

2018 https://chinatribunal.com/

This is a mock tribunal, without any power of law, and was of course initially lobbied / organized brought up by FLG: https://endtransplantabuse.org/

However,  Ciro Santilli believes that none of the lawyers / jury members are FLG believers, and that they are trying to honestly decide if there is enough evidence or not for organ harvesting in China.

They also have non-FLG witnesses.

Wether you believe in their partiality or not, I highly recommend watching some of what the witnesses, which I find very convincing and informative:

* https://youtu.be/oW3IaaXWE8s?t=7225 Swedish man who spent several years in prison in China

A notable precursor to mock tribunals is the link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Tribunal[Russel Tribunal].

Bibliography:

* Dr. Enver Tothi, has spoken openly about his organ harvesting activities in the 1990s in several tribunals in Europe
** 2020 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/surgeon-who-harvested-organs-slaughtered-21040274 "Surgeon who harvested organs of slaughtered dissident now London Uber driver"
** 2019 in EU parliament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n-9n897jIo
** 2017 Him speaking in : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY at Ireland's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY[House of the Oireachtas]

==== Falun Gong overviews

Some possibly neutral overviews.

For:

* http://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-prc-and-falun-gong-langone

Against:

* http://www.culteducation.com/group/1254-falun-gong.html

Interesting:

* http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

==== Things I personally dislike about FLG

But also as explaining why I don't think it justifies the ban.

This section also gives me more credibility as a balanced critic >:-)

[[flg-religion]]
===== FLG downplays the fact that it is a religion

If asked if they follow a religion, most FLG believers will say no. E.g. they call themselves "practitioners" instead of believers.

But Ciro Santilli strongly believes that all most people in the West would classify FLG as a religion if they are told that for FLG:

* absolute truth comes from an enlightened <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>, who is perfect and has super human abilities
* weekly meetings where they read from a sacred book, either written by the prophet, or transcribed from his presentations to disciples, including the disciples questions, much like traditional Chinese texts like link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analects[The Analects of Confucius]
* prescribed daily meditation exercise hours, somewhat like Muslim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah[Salah] prayers which they call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazhengnian[发正念 (fa1 zheng4 nian4)]
* higher intelligent beings
* other dimensions
* aliens that looks like humans are amongst us, they gave us part of our modern technology
* meetings in which people tell their religious testimonies ("experience sharing"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony#Religion
* an impending link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment[final judgement]-like event, which will happen "very soon" (<<flg-verifiable,unspecified date>>), and in which the just will be rewarded
+
I predict that when <<li-hongzhi>> dies, the claim will be that he went to another dimension so save us all, therefore putting this final judgement on hold, a bit like Jesus.
* link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-air_preaching[street preaching] with stands and leaflets on the streets exactly like link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses[Jehovah's Witnesses]. The Falun Gong organization also specifies guidelines on how to preach, although these might not be <<flg-canon,canon>>, even though if they are not, it is extremely likely that <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> is directly involved in their specification

Or a cult, which is nothing but a new / small religion with negative connotation, and thus meaningless.

But consider this: how to classify what a religion is?

Some would answer: science is what everyone can perceive with their own senses.

But FLG followers claim to feel FLG energies when doing the exercises, and a few of them have the power of seeing the other dimensions.

On the other hand, how many of your friends have experienced the laws of quantum field theory or general relativity in a very direct way?

And aren't pro-democracy believers also taking actions based solely on a shared belief, possibly organized by a pro-democracy leader?

From a purely strategic point of view, the "religion" denomination would be:

* good to FLG because the concept of freedom of religion carries considerable weight in the West
* bad for FLG because people who already have a religion would be less likely to try it out and start believing

See also: <<flg-daily>>.

[[flg-organized]]
===== FLG downplays the fact that it is highly organized

Many FLG practitioners claim that they are not at all organized, or that they have no political interest, and I truly believe that they mean it.

But it is obvious from the size of the FLG related media, namely:

* link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDTV[NDTV television network]
* link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_Times[Epoch Times newspaper]
* link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_Yun_Performing_Arts[Shen Yun Performing Arts]

that in practice they do have are a highly organized hierarchical structure, and very likely with <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> at the very top, e.g.:

* Shen Yun's 2018 libretto says that their Artistic Director and founder is "D.F." (likely an abbreviation for Da Fa, which is an abbreviation for Falun Gong Dafa, which is a full name of Falun Gong), with a picture of LHZ on top. It also amusingly says that D.F. is a "Distinguished Professor of Music and Dance at Fei Tian College in New York", which is likely where many of Shen Yun's dancers are trained, and therefore controlled by himself to a large extent
* LHZ mentions NDTV, Epoch Times and Shen Yun extensively on his <<flg-canon>>. TODO link to source, this based on unintentionally overhearing to my family members reading it.

Furthermore, Falun Gong practitioners directly lobby foreign governments to take action against human rights abuses in China, e.g.:

* http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+MOTION+P7-RC-2013-0562+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN
* https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-court-cisco-must-be-held-accountable-aiding-chinas-human-rights-abuses

Like any other religion, they have all the right to take those actions, and it is definitely in their best interest, and perhaps in the best interest of the whole world, that they do so.

The only thing that annoys me is their lack of self perception on this matter: the large majority of Western people would definitely classify them as an organized political force after having observed their activities. When they say otherwise, they are hurting their own credibility.

====== FLG media is not transparent about its affiliation

Agreed, and it is a point that hurts more than helps their cause.

But the media is not legally obliged to state their affiliation.

And if that were the case, then we should force _all_ newspapers start taking pools of how many employees follow which religion and support which political party, and then put that in their print.

===== FLG dislikes several other groups like homosexuals and some other religions

Like most old religions.

Democracy dislikes dictators.

You and I dislike certain personality traits without any logical reason.

What matters is that we treat everyone with respect and without bias at work, even if we don't like them.

But the law can't force you to like everyone.

If one specific FLG member breaks a law by discriminating someone, they should be punished just like anyone else.

See also: <<gay-rights>>.

[[flg-medication]]
===== FLG believers are less likely to take necessary medication

Due to their beliefs in the healing power of FLG, which seems to have certain level of support on <<flg-canon,canonical texts>> TODO precise quotes.

This is a point that makes me worry, and I do believe that it is true for some believers, that but consider:

* what matters are statistics. Maybe FLG people live longer than non FLG in average. But we will never have statistics because of censorship: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/27529/have-many-falun-gong-practitioners-forgone-medical-treatment-and-died-of-treatab
* maybe people should be link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation[allowed to choose how they want to die], not to take medication if they don't want to
* maybe the number of people killed during persecution vastly outnumbers those who died because they would not take medication
* several religions, including <<christianity>> have miraculous cure claims. My impression is that claims were mostly notable in the old times apparently, likely because people noticed that Christians were still dying of all kinds of diseases like everyone else, no matter how devout!
* maybe the main reason why communists banned FLG is the political threat it posed, but that a ban was unjustified given the situation. Christian crosses are being taken down as of 2016, have they stopped taking their medications as well?
* maybe many of those people would also have died soon even if they had taken medication
* maybe not all Falun Gong believers thought that it was wise to stop taking medication. But their religion was banned anyways. Who can agree and follow all the innumerable prescriptions of any religious or legal system?
* all the following also reduce people's lifespan:
+
--
** riding motorcycles vs cars / buses
** smoking
** moving to a poor country to do charity there
** eating fast food
--
+
Forbidding them also has huge humanitarian costs (more expensive vehicles, creation of a black market, ...). So why not forbid them as well?

[[li-hongzhi]]
===== FLG is dangerous because Li Hongzhi has too much power over followers

Li Hongzhi (LHZ,李洪志) is the creator of FLG: link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi[], or as <<ciro-santilli>> prefers to call it, its <<flg-religion,prophet>>.

I agree that there is danger in every religion, and specially new religions.

However the same point can be made about political parties and in particular the CCP and its chairman.

Couldn't a charismatic leader chairman gain more and more power (like Xi seems to be doing), and eventually start a war and kill millions? Or just kill some minority which is not happy about the situation.

Similarly, any charismatic leader of a pro democracy movement could become the leader of a terrorist organization.

If you ever want democracy, you will have to learn to accept the beliefs of others, and only punish them when they actually break a law.

Finally, LHZ was born in 1951, so he will die in 20 years, unless FLG is true and a miracle happens, and then this argument will become invalid.

From what I hear, LHZ has always maintained that he is the only source of truth on FLG, and therefore, so his death will very likely remove any danger once and for all.

Furthermore, it also seems to me that FLG is clearly anti-violence and self-harm, so I wonder how many would follow a contradictory order such as killing or suicide?

It is also interesting to look into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown case. When the suicide order came, most people wanted out! Without physically controlling the followers, I don't think you can make them do much.

.Li Hongzhi is Falun Gong's prophet/cult leader/living God. He's a cute north-Western 东北人 like <<wife,Ciro's wife>>. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Li_Hongzhi_1.jpg[height=400]

.Li Hongzhi practicing one of his exercises with one of his cute prophet outfits in an extremely nice Chinese <<does-ciro-santilli-hate-china,stone garden>>. TODO exact location and date. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Li_Hongzhi_Falun_Gong.jpg[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Li_Hongzhi_Falun_Gong.jpg[height=600]

.Li going https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan[Super Saiyan] while casually sitting on a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_lotus_in_religious_art[giant Lotus flower] with a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(religious_iconography)[halo] on his head. https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/8022105562347289/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200226083545/https://i.pinimg.com/564x/32/fc/95/32fc954e99d658751da18a0b20ae2894.jpg[height=600]

.Dubstep Li can liangong at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubstep[dubstep] speed. https://giphy.com/gifs/dubstep-gifs-dubstepgifs-xUOwFY1prqgUdPuFvW[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20200229161316if_/https://i.giphy.com/media/xUOwFY1prqgUdPuFvW/giphy.webp[height=400]

===== Some FLG people make phone telemarketing

I've seen that happen, they made phone calls to people in China to explain why FLG is good, and I disapprove of it.

Visual ads on the street on Internet I can stand, but not any kind of advertising that generates notifications on my feeds.

==== Falun Gong bibliography

* https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-Chinese-government-against-Falun-Gong
* http://www.zhihu.com/question/23988890 (https://web.archive.org/web/20160311140407/https://www.zhihu.com/question/23988890[archive]) "全能神教在境外，法轮功也在境外，为什么他们不祸害境外人民、偏偏只祸害大陆人？"

[[news]]
== News 新闻

Trying to keep only "neutral" sources here, let me know if you spot something too biased: <<biased-media>>.