README.adoc

But consider this: how to classify what a religion is?

Some would answer: science is what every one can perceive with their own senses.

But FLG followers claim to feel FLG energies when doing the exercises, and a few of them have the power of seeing the other dimensions.

On the other hand, how many of your friends have experienced the laws of quantum field theory or general relativity in a very direct way?

And aren't pro-democracy believers also taking actions based solely on a shared belief, possibly organized by a pro-democracy leader?

From a purely strategic point of view, the "religion" denomination would be:

* good to FLG because the concept of freedom of religion carries considerable weight in the West
* bad for FLG because people who already have a religion would be less likely to try it out and start believing
+
Falun Gong's recruitment strategy is to focus on the exercises first, and in particular its <<flg-medication,health benefits>> and then as some people start to feel things, they start introducing the metaphysics.

See also: "Different levels of truth" from <<orange-papers>>.

See also: <<flg-daily>>.

[[flg-cult]]
===== Is Falun Gong a cult? 法轮功是邪教吗？

Falun Gong does share many many many characteristics with what many people classify as a "cult", see e.g.: <<orange-papers>>, so "yes" could be a reasonably answer.

However, <<ciro-santilli>> strongly believes that so does any other existing religion e.g. <<christianity>>, and that Falun Gong is not any worse or better than those other well known religions.

Ciro therefore believes that the only reasonable stances are to either:

* be against all religions (including Christianity and Falun Gong), and classify all of them as Cults
* allow both Christianity and Falun Gong to exist, and support religious freedom

but not "oppose Falun Gong" and support Christianity.

Some people will say: Falun Gong is a cult because it is too new and therefore obviously fake!

So, if I tell a lie today, will it become true in a thousand years? Or a truth today become a lie? The Romans called <<christianity>> the "Cult of Jesus"!

Try sending an email to <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> asking him to <<flg-verifiable,prove his powers to you>> :-)

Others will say: Falun Gong is a cult because its prophet is still alive!

But then, worry not, because Li Hongzhi was born in 1951, and therefore will almost certainly die by 2040, unless he truly is a living God as he claims.

Now, for the really important question of weather Falun Gong is a "good" or "bad" religion, <<ciro-santilli>> has seen absolutely nothing in it that is worse than any <<flg-religion,other major religion>> say, e.g., <<christianity>>.

Some possibly neutral Cult analysts analyzing if FLG is good or bad:

* https://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-prc-and-falun-gong-langone

Against:

* https://www.culteducation.com/group/1254-falun-gong.html

In the end however, since there is nothing obviously completely creepy about FLG, all such discussions are basically equivalent to <<democracy-is-a-religion,"is the Left better than the Right">>, and cannot be answered.

One interesting linguistic aspect is that "cult" normally translates in Chinese as "邪教" which means "Evil religion".

As mentioned before, Ciro does not believe that FLG is an "Evil Cult", just another "Acceptable Cult", and therefore would not use "邪教" to describe it.

Amusingly, <<li-hongzhi,Li>> calls the communists Communist Evil Party (中共邪党) in cannon, well played: https://gb.falundafa.org/chigb/jiangfa5_2.htm

The word "Cult" is much more ambiguous in the West however, and does not necessarily imply "Evil" in certain contexts, just "worship".

For example, People from <<ciro-santilli>>'s mother's Protestant Church in Brazil, all say that they are going "to the cult" when referring to when they are going to church to pray, sing and read the Bible together.

And obviously, the origin of the word "cult" is exactly the same as that of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cultivate#Etymology["cultivate"] as in "cultivate the crops" (which is also how Falun Gong believers refer to practicing Falun Gong: "cultivation practice"). All of those come from the https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cult#Etymology[Latin "colō"], which means simply "to protect".

====== Orange Papers

https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

Down as of 2020-04, https://web.archive.org/web/20160205090248/https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html[2016-02-05 archive]

This is an amazing website talking about Cults and many other things! TODO who is the author? Copyright says by "A. Orange". Is it the real name, or just a pun for "I ate an orange"?

And the website also has a Free Tibet flag at the bottom.

Many of the points highlighted at are very very interesting and Ciro feels that they apply strongly to <<falun-gong>>:

* "Instant Community" and "Instant intimacy": you instantly join the cult family, and are very very likely to believe or at least consider anything anyone else in the cult says about their religious experiences, no matter how far-fetched, even though it is not <<flg-canon,canon>>
+
Conversely, this also poses a risk for the Cult Leader, as new community ideas can spread very quickly, and if you try to fight them off, they might create a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism[Schism].
* "Cult-speak": see also "Newspeak" from <<nineteen-eighty-four>> and some common Falun Gong Cult-speak see: <<flg-religion>>
* "Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions, groups, or organizations": yes, <<li-hongzhi>> does this all the time, see: <<zhong-gong>>
* "Personal testimonies of earlier converts": see "experience sharing" at <<flg-religion>>
* "The group and its members are special", "Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider": see: "ordinary people (常人)" at <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong>>
* "Making cult members work long hours for free": yes, many FLG members work long long hours for free. Why wouldn't you if you are saving people's souls?
* "No Humor": see also <<funny>>
* "Different Levels of Truth", "Deceptive Recruiting": Falun Gong people don't talk freely about their funny beliefs like <<flg-religion,aliens are amongst us>> to outsiders. Rather, they lure you in with the exercises first. Ciro has personally heard the following said many times: "you should not tell this to non-believers, they are not ready for this truth yet".
* "Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists": <<falun-gong-media>>
* "Promised Powers or Knowledge" and "It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies": they seem to believe in a <<flg-religion,Judgement Day like event>> and <<flg-medication,health benefits>>
* "The Guru is always right", "You are always wrong", "No Graduates", "The Guru Is Extra-Special", "Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around", "The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.": obviously: <<li-hongzhi>>
** "Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking"

There are also however some points which Ciro feels don't apply, and Ciro praises Falun Gong for those:

* "Dual Purposes": not much of that, most of their propaganda is "we are persecuted unfairly by China", not "let's help the poor"
* "The End Justifies The Means": Li has made it clear that believers must follow the laws of their countries. Cults that violate this tend to not last as long, this is the smart move for cult leaders.

And some points which Ciro feels apply which were mentioned in some other article, (or maybe in Orange Papers but he couldn't find them, TODO find reference?)

* "No time for fun": how could you possibly spend leisure time watching television, etc. when you could be saving the world instead?
* "Focus on the persecution of the Cult": while obviously people who have been persecuted have the right, and almost an obligation, to look for help and share their stories, it is also clear that this is a selling point for the Cult.
+
Why would a nation state attack a Cult? This could give the impression that it is because there is something powerful and true in the Cult, and actually menaces this nation state.
+
For example, Falun Gong puts huge emphasis on its persecution in China, much like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr[Martyrdom] of the Catholic Saints is highly emphasised.
* "Careful control of your imsage": the cult leader is a master at controlling how people view him.
+
One aspect of that, is to limit your public appearances to situations in which you have the most control, and notably being surrounded by your believers.
+
Li does not announce where he is going, even though he is followed by millions: he just shows up, and local believers whisper to one another and come to see him.
+
This reminded Ciro of the following 2012 video he watched, in which VICE was allowed to visit and interview <<russia,Siberian>> prophet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vissarion[Vissarion] (real name Sergey Anatolyevitch Torop Серге́й Анато́льевич То́роп, AKA "The Russian Jesus"), and they note how well he controlled his appearance.
+
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5hZfOmk&t=1177
video::W2Cv5hZfOmk[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=1177]

This is especially interesting, because the website does not mention Falun Gong at all it seems: it really seems that all those cults are very similar.

It should also be mentioned though that these points extend to any type of human organization, e.g. <<flg-religion,other religions>>, <<democracy-is-a-religion,political parties>>, job associations, etc.

[[flg-canon]]
==== What are the canonical Falun Gong texts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong

It appears that Falun Gong cannon is present at: https://falundafa.org/

The two main books are:

* "Falun Gong", 2006 English translation https://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/flg_2006.htm[]:
+
____
Falun Gong is an introductory book that discusses qigong, introduces the principles of the practice, and provides illustrations and explanations of the exercises.
____
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong#Zhuan_Falun,_the_main_book[Zhuan Falun], 1998 English version: https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_01.htm[]:
+
According to Wikipedia:
+
____
Zhuan Falun is the main teaching and the most comprehensive work; it is an edited version of Li's nine-lecture series, 54 of which he taught across China between 1992 and 1994.
____

It contains <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>'s approved texts/speech transcriptions, which are sacred.

The only sacred version is Chinese which is a sacred language, and of which there is only one perfect revision. Islam also appears to place great importance on the sacredness of Arabic in which Mohamed first spoke, perhaps even more: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/plight-uyghurs-why-muslims-wont-speak-their-brethren-112466 Protestants and later the Catholic church, have moved away from such really bad strategy however, the accessibility of Christianity is seen on the entrance of many many churches which have a sign "ALL are welcome". Well played.

<<ciro-santilli>> heard <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> claims the specifically chose to reincarnate in China this last time.

The English translation is made by followers, and gets new revisions to reduce translation imperfections.

However, the Chinese language seems to be fundamentally sacred, and there might never be a sacred English version approved by LHZ.

LHZ is of course a de-facto God with superpowers, and can of course speak all languages, but https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=for%20reasons[for reasons] he didn't just write an English translation himself.

This is a reasonable command to download the English cannon for grepping:

....
wget -r -l inf --no-remove-listing --no-clobber --no-parent -w 2 https://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-books.html
....

TODO: need to find a way to wrap lines, otherwise grep might fail on sentences.

But funnily the Canon books appear to all be copyrighted, likely "to avoid other people from modifying his sacred text", which is funny since the dude's the voice of absolute truth of the universe, but you still gotta copyright that I guess.

Nothing else is canonical. LHZ seems to have said that there are enlightened followers, but has not specified who, so we can't derive canon from anyone else.

Notably, <<flg-organized,FLG media>> such as https://www.minghui.org/ is believer led and thus not canonical, even though believers have very high confidence in it, and LHZ <<flg-organized,directly supports it>>.

==== Does Ciro Santilli support FLG, or just use it because it is censored?

Ciro Santilli doesn't support FLG specifically, only freedom of religion. See of course: <<flg-bias>>.

Ciro uses it in his usernames simply because it is the most banned and censored one in China today.

He believe that <<thoughtcrime,individuals should only be put in jail for what they do, not for what they believe>>.

He considers FLG <<flg-religion,a religion like any other>>, and he is against its ban, as that of all other religions.

He also believes that freedom of speech and democracy imply that FLG and other religions will exist. If you want freedom, you have to <<intolerance,accept other people's choices>>.

Otherwise, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy and communism can also be considered as religions>>, and banned.

See also: <<flg-verifiable>>.

[[flg-daily]]
==== How is it like to live with Falun Gong believers?

This will obviously vary from believer to believer, but here is my experience.

Like any other religion that is taken seriously, they spend several hours per week doing their standard religious activities: <<flg-religion>>.

I never seen them, or anyone we know from FLG say or do something that I consider morally incorrect because of FLG.

This does not prevent <<wife,my wife>> from working normally.

My mother-in-law, who is retired, dedicates all her time to Falun Gong when she is not taking care of the house.

My mother is also religious (link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism[Protestant]), and I get a very similar feeling about both groups.

Like other religions, Falun Gong gives them meaning in life, and I admire that they pursue their belief energetically.

I much prefer that my mother-in-law does Falun Gong, which is a noble meaningful goal, rather than watch stupid crap on television.

Also, although I am <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>, I also live in a similar way.

My religion is that of science and technology, and I pursue it fervently by trying to learn and teach it and spend several hours a week doing that, even when it does not give me money immediately.

If I pursue my meaning, why should I prevent anyone from pursuing theirs?

Previously, my wife and mother-in-law would sometimes try to persuade me to learn FLG, which was annoying.

But every time I told them very clearly that I know where to download the books if I want to, and that I may never want to read them, and that my wife must either accept this fact or leave me.

And they have accepted that: they think I'm a good person, and they can accept that you can also be a good person even without doing FLG.

I do feel Falun Gong makes my mother-in-law more reluctant to use or actively search for <<flg-medication,medication or treatment>>. But I think it is also linked to the fact that she didn't have a very good education or a good health system around. However, if we give her something, she will take it. My wife does not have any resistance to medication.

One thing that does worry me is that my mother in law sleeps too little every night, doing one of the Falun Gong meditations late in the evening, and then waking up very early to a long series of reading and exercise sessions.

Bibliography:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795 at <<zhihu>>

==== In the Tweet about his mother in law, Ciro Santilli says "correctional facility", but reeducation through labour has been abolished

He was not very precise https://twitter.com/cirosantilli/status/579270450984984576[here], the precise term is "jail". He was _not_ talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor Unfortunately it is not possible to edit a Tweet.

[[flg-changed]]
==== Falun Gong is completely different in the West than it was in China

I believe that it has changed.

But isn't that the case of every cultural religious movement that migrates to a completely new culture?

Main points which may have changed:

* It has become more organized.
+
But why shouldn't they organize to defend themselves now that they have the chance without being put into prison?
+
The CCP is highly organized and has way more resources.
* Less emphasis is given to the religious/mystical aspect, and more to the corporal exercises, and health aspect.
+
This may be because people in the "West" are:
+
** are "scientific-educated" atheists who wouldn't go for a "religion"
** already have other religions, which would view FLG as a taboo

Also maybe only the richest and most educated believers managed to escape China, and thus the movement carried that bias outside China.

If you know more ways in which it may have changed, let me know.

But once again, we can know nothing for sure about the past in China because of censorship.

Even if you saw something yourself, how can you be sure that it is representative?

And if it has changed, now that it has changed, maybe China should unban it?

See also:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/23988890 at <<zhihu>>

==== FLG has been funded by the US government at least once, therefore it is evil

1.5M USD in 2010 for a FLG controlled internet freedom group https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8678760.stm

But well, if you are going to do something anyway, and someone offers you money, why wouldn't you take it?

Taking the money does of course give a "bad impression" that someone is trying to buy influence, but does it in itself imply that you are doing something bad?

But do you really think that the US government paid that to buy influence in FLG? What would they force upon that FLG group that they didn't already want to do? Isn't it more likely that the US government wanted them to continue doing exactly what they were doing?

Every government funds groups it supports, it is an all out war I suppose. Compare that to the propaganda funds of the CCP.

What about the funding of political campaigns, which vastly outnumbers 1.5M USD every year?

[[follow-the-law]]
==== FLG is illegal in China, we must follow the law

This might be a bad law that should be changed.

It was perfectly legal for <<nazi,Nazis>> to kill Jews. Does it make that right?

But many times, the commies don't even bother passing a law, they just fuck people anyways without one: <<rule-of-law>>.

[[flg-fake]]
==== FLG is fake 法轮功是假的

The same can be argued about any other religion or political belief of type: it is better if we organize society in this or that way.

How can you disprove their belief, when as in any other religion, every affirmation made hinges on "miracles only happen around when true believers are around" or "only true believers can perceive evidence in their hearts / minds directly". He died of cancer or <<corona>>? Not a true believer, deep withing his heart, something was wrong.

Conversely, do you understand the full sequence of experiments that imply quantum field theory? Have you seen videos of those experiments? Have you attended live demonstrations? Do you understand the construction of the experimentation apparatus? Yet, why do you believe it?

More importantly: what do you propose that should be done about it? Should we kill followers? Or is jail enough?

Also do let me know when you have achieved irrefutable proof that democracy/freedom of speech are the optimal ways to organize the government: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

See also: <<flg-religion>>

[[flg-verifiable]]
===== FLG never makes any predictions that can be reasonably verified by non-believers

Exactly, just like any other <<flg-religion>>, this is why <<ciro-santilli>> is <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>> and things Falun Gong metaphysics is bullshit.

Notably, <<li-hongzhi>> explicitly forbids display of magical powers gained by believers to non-believers: <<flg-supernatural-powers>> for "reasons". What a convenient coincidence, that prevents any verifiability!

The closest claims to observable Ciro has heard are:

* when pictures are taken in sacred events, notably <<shen-yun>>, sometimes you can see magic Falun energy wheels in the pictures
* in the homes of some followers, small magic good plants-like fungi-like things have grown
+
.Image of the magic good small plants that grew on a believer's home. They took a photo and it published on <<falun-gong-media,Minghui>> as a 2018 Chinese New Year good wish page to <<li-hongzhi>>. If any biologist reads this, for the love of God send me a Wikipedia page with the possible species. TODO transcribe the Chinese. https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2018/2/17/168396p.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200312085051im_/http://en.minghui.org/u/article_images/e9c2b07e224d28984998a094deb53f85.jpg[height=400]
* the <<flg-canon,sacred books>> of some believers had a closed lotus flower when they were bought, and after several years, the flower opened

but Ciro suspects they are not even <<flg-canon,canon>>, just believer oral culture.

Of course, like every other religion, reality happens to be is constructed in a way that prevents non-believers to verify anything with their eyes in a reproducible way.

Or a Jesus put it in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4&version=NIV[Luke 4]:

[[luke-4]]
____
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

“'He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
____

Ah good old <<li-hongzhi,prophets>>, their tricks haven't changed a bit in 2 thousand years! This is why <<ciro-santilli>> follows instead the religion of <<democracy-is-a-religion,science and freedom of speech>>, because those religions instead say:

____
Test your God. Test your God a billion times. And if your God proves wrong just once, disbelieve it.
____

The Pontius Pilate Scene from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)[The Last Temptation of Christ (1988)] comes to mind, quotes:

____
Pontius: It's also said that you do miracles? Is this good magic or bad magic? Can we have some sort of demonstration?

Jesus: No, I'm not a trained animal, I'm not a magician.

Pontius: Well, that's disappointing. This means that you are just another Jewish politician.
____

and:

____
Pontius: It's one way to change the way that people live, but you want to change the way that they think and that they feel.

Jesus: All I'm saying is the change will happen with love. Not with killing.

Pontius: Either way it's dangerous. It's against Rome. It's against the way the world is. In killing or loving, it's all the same. It simply doesn't matter how you want to change things, we don't want them changed.
____

.https://youtube.com/watch?v=pXGsio9H1xs The Last Temptation of Christ (1988) - Pontius Pilate Scene (5/10) | Movieclips.
video::pXGsio9H1xs[youtube,height=400,width=600]

[[against-censorship-and-flg]]
==== Many people both are against censorship and FLG

Ciro know that, and that supporting FLG is "bad" for his public image with most Chinese, including those that are against censorship.

But <<dictator-needs-gfw,without censorship, there will be democracy>>, and with democracy FLG followers will have voting rights, and FLG will become legal.

Ciro thinks that the situation is very similar to <<flg-religion,Scientology>> in the USA today: most people dislike it, but believe that you can believe whatever you want.

Democracy and Communism <<democracy-is-a-religion,can also be considered as religions and persecuted>>.

Isn't it convenient when a dictatorship gets rid of those weirdos for you? But not so much when suddenly you or your family is the weirdo...

If you are not ready to accept the beliefs of others, dictatorship is the only choice for you.

It is also interesting to note how Falun Gong is a good source of <<censorship-circumvention>> material.

See also: <<flg-bias>>

[[democracy-is-a-religion]]
===== Why does Ciro Santilli say that democracy is a religion just like Falun Gong?

Because it also specifies irrational and fundamental aspects of how one should live, notably voting and freedom of speech.

Like the Cult of CCP has one fundamental belief: <<stability,the Party is always right>>, or as mentioned in <<orange-papers>> section "The Guru is always right." (highlight by Ciro):

____
The Guru, his church, and his teachings are always right, and above criticism, and beyond reproach.

In some cults, the guru is dead, but the principle is the same. I use the word "guru" loosely here; in many cults the charismatic leader has the title of minister, priest, yogi, swami, prophet, or all-knowing wise man. **Or even, "Chairman Mao."** In any case, the leader is always right.
____

And they also claim that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous[Alcoholics Anonymous] could be characterized as a cult. Very cool. What else could be powerful enough to get you off a physical addiction, than a mental addiction, right?

Ban FLG, and you have banned democracy.

Accept democracy, and you will have FLG.

There is no in-between.

[[flg-stability]]
===== Falun Gong had to be banned because it was a threat to the stability of the country

Then they link to the Taping Rebellion:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

Of course FLG was a threat to the stability of the country.

It is, as <<ciro-santilli>> has said, a highly organized political power: <<flg-political>>.

However, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy>> is a threat to the stability country in the exact same way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

Anything that goes against a dictatorship is a threat to the stability of the country.

Now read: <<stability>>

==== Many people say they do FLG only to get VISAs to the USA

<<ciro-santilli>> heard this a few times, and I believe it has happened.

But I don't see how this is relevant at all to this discussion:

* if they are not really FLG believers, they should be prosecuted, but this says nothing about the real FLG believers,
* if they are, then why wouldn't they seek a VISA, since they are in constant threat of going to jail or worse in China, and the USA law gives them that right?

Sample news:

* https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/09/28/652218318/thousands-could-be-deported-as-government-targets-asylum-mills-clients

[[flg-witness]]
==== I have personally seen people do bad things because of Falun Gong

Either direct suicide or <<flg-medication,dying because of not taking medication>>.

First, I'm not saying I don't believe you, and I'm sorry about what happened.

But your testimony is worthless unless you give the following:

* clear unique personal identification
+
This is because the CCP has thousands of <<wumao,wumaos>> who could make fake reports.
+
There are basically two ways to do that:
+
. your testimony is done in video form on YouTube clearly showing your face as you make it
. links between a notable social media presence that is hard to achieve, e.g. Twitter with many followers, Stack overflow with a lot of rep, and the account
+
Either of those must contain / link to information that uniquely identifies you. Generally, full name, city and date of birth is enough.
* a precise testimony that states exactly what you saw happen with your own eyes, or heard from people that are very close to you.
+
The testimony must include:
+
--
** when the events happened
** where they happened, in which city at the very least
** the full names of who did what
--
+
This is to:
+
** make it easier to verify the truth of the event
** uniquely identify the event so we don't count a single event multiple times

If you do provide all of the above, I add your report to a list of reports that I will maintain. This list does not exist yet because there were no valid reports yet.

Next consider this:

* are you sure that Falun Gong made the person do the bad thing, and that the person wouldn't have done it anyway?
+
Did someone from Falun Gong told the person to do it?
+
I bet that if you look into patients of psychiatrists, you will find more suicides than average. So should we ban psychiatry?
* are you sure that the order came from <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>, and that it was not just some disgruntled local leader using Falun Gong for his personal madness and doing things he did not approve?
+
Branch Davidians were inspired by <<christianity>>. So should we ban Christianity? What about the majority of Christians who have never done anything bad?
* only statistics have any meaning, and it would require a very large number of reports to make up statistics, so you will likely be wasting your time. I will do my part and maintain a list however.
* if we ask for FLG believers to compile a list of horrors they have suffered, which they have already been doing since the start of the persecution, I bet that their list will be much longer than yours, because they are so <<flg-organized,well organized>>

[[flg-persecution]]
==== FLG does not have proof of their persecution claims

How much proof do you think they would be able to get when there is no freedom of the press?

Do you think that forbidding a <<flg-important,70 million>> person religion could have gone smoothly?

Do you think the thousands of personal accounts of human rights violations that exist are all fake, and don't indicate that many, many more have taken place but fallen under censorship?

Conversely, there is no reliable proof that FLG is bad as claimed by CCP that has been verified by international media.

[[thoughtcrime]]
==== Someone from movement X did something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

By this logic, everyone should go to jail. The law should only punish individuals.

The communist party, which has had continuous power since 1949, killed millions during the <<cultural-revolution>>. Surely they must be banned, no?

But the CCP has changed so much since those days, I hear you say.

I agree. And <<flg-changed,so has Falun Gong>>.

See also: "thoughtcrime" from <<nineteen-eighty-four>>.

Or if you like shitty movies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)[Minority Report (2002)].

===== Movement X tells people to do something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

E.g. kill.

Yes, convincing someone to do something bad is as bad as doing it yourself of course, and must be forbidden.

Now proceed to prove that FLG made and will continue making people do bad things, going through:

* <<flg-witness>>
* <<flg-changed>>

[[flg-political]]
==== People from movement X are only in it for political power

For every desire of the masses, there will be amoral representatives that will step to use that power.

Still, those representatives cannot gain power if there is no backing desire from society.

The only advantage of <<richer,democracy>>, is that those representatives have to pretend harder to do things for that group to retain their power.

Falun Gong believers obviously have the right to do politics, just like any other person, and Ciro greatly encourages this.

But Ciro does not like that Falun Gong tends to not call itself a political force, when it clearly is. But full disclosure is not a legal obligation, and many many media outlets don't really disclose their obvious political connections. See also: <<flg-organized>>.

Falun Gong directly contacts Government officials, http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/a25124-European-Falun-Gong-Practitioners-held-an-Anti-torture-Exhibition-during-the-European-Union-Meeting-in-France.html#.XyHSa2OYWV4[demonstrates in front of government buildings] and <<flg-trump,supports Trump>>, how can that not be politics?!?! Just call it for what it is, and no one will be able to criticize you for it!

<<li-hongzhi>> directly says that FLG should not be involved in politics in <<flg-canon>>, e.g. https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/jjyz52.htm[]:

____
Never get involved in politics, nor interfere with state affairs.
____

But at the same, he also greatly encourages <<falun-gong-media>>, which obviously a political influence method.

.https://youtu.be/ArfGyo6HQ_E?t=1175 Ciro really liked what https://www.holycross.edu/academics/programs/religious-studies/faculty/mathew-schmalz[Doctor Matthew N. Schmalz] said on this VICE documentary about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyung_Jin_Moon[Hyung Jin Moon]'s and his https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_movement[Unification movement] ("the Moonies" split-off religion. "I think that any new religion needs a constituency. And especially for a group that is new, that is relatively small, making connections with other groups that might have similar commitments is something that can be quite productive if you are a leader of a new religion". As long as everyone plays the democracy game through democracy rules, peace tends to be maintained, and it is easier for multiple different beliefs to coexist. Falun Gong has obviously gone in this political direction, and that is a positive sign about the religion.
video::ArfGyo6HQ_E[youtube,height=400,width=600,t=1175]

[[flg-trump]]
===== FLG supports Donald Trump 法轮功支持特朗普

<<ciro-santilli>> believes he has heard praises to Trump directly in <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>'s speeches, but could not find a source.

Also, the <<epoch-times,Falun Gong controlled newspaper>> has donated to Trump propaganda: $1.5 million https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/trump-qanon-impending-judgment-day-behind-facebook-fueled-rise-epoch-n1044121

But of course, so long as those respect the laws of the country, they are free to do it and must not be interfered. As if other major American media didn't have political agendas.

It is therefore extremely likely that 99.999% of Falun Gong believers also support Trump.

This is exactly the same, in fact, as <<flg-religion,Christian groups>> which always gather behind "the right".

In the case of the Falun Gong however, Trump has been vocal about China's threat, and therefore is a much needed ally of the movement.

Trump's immigration policies have turned Asian Americans towards the democrat opposition however as of 2019: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/13/18308137/asian-american-voters-immigration-democrats-donald-trump

One saving point of the republicans for Asians is the opposition to university quotas instance, which many Asians feel blocks their high performing kids from top schools for less deserving Black students. This also plays into possible cross Asian-Black racism tensions.

==== Western media has exaggerated reports on FLG for propaganda reasons

Possibly true, but which reports are you talking about specifically?

All that I care about is:

* it is censored today
* if you do it you go to jail
* there were tens of millions of followers at the time of the ban

which I think are undeniable.

The only question that matters is: should it be banned or not?

==== Does Ciro Santilli believe in the allegations of human rights violations done to Falun Gong believers?

Besides the obvious prohibition of their most fundamental belief, so e.g. being tortured.

Let's just focus on the evidence:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CedVnJOgwg4 "Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps" by "FOX 11 Los Angeles" published May 21, 2019. Names mentioned: Fuquan Yin,

[[flg-organ-harvesting]]
===== Does Ciro Santilli believe in the allegations of organ harvesting made by Falun Gong believers?

In short: Ciro believes that it has happened to many people.

Long version follows.

It is obviously very hard to prove and quantify it definitely, much like it was hard to prove the Holocaust: bodies were cremated, and bribes were paid.

Even if we had a video showing the whole process, showing the whole money flow from the donor to the prison guard, it would still be hard to quantify it, so I do have some room for doubt in this opinion.

But consider the following, which is based on what Ciro has heard.

Even Chinese officials have admitted that in the past, if the body of the executed person is not claimed by family, then the organs can be extracted even without the consent of the prisoner:

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/china-still-using-executed-prisoners-organs-transplants-vatican
* https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-face-of-criticism-china-has-been-cleaning-up-its-organ-transplant-industry/2017/09/14/d689444e-e1a2-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html

Perhaps now that they claim that there is a large voluntary organ donor database, then this has stopped or been reduced, but let's focus on that period when the extractions were widely done.

From this, even though China does not publish execution statistics, we can imagine that a large part of the organs come from prisoners sentenced to death.

Then, consider that a <<flg-important,70 million>> person religion was banned, leading to a huge influx of prisoners from that religion.

FLG followers are just de-facto criminals like any other, and so extracting their organs is also de-facto legal.

Also, people from that religion don't drink alcohol, smoke or take drugs, and their organs are of good quality.

Furthermore, FLG prisoners continue to not bow down to the government even in prison, e.g. by doing their <<flg-religion,Falun Gong meditation>>, which makes them clearly identifiable and dangerous to the system.

Finally, add to that mix the <<corruption,huge level of corruption found in dictatorships>>.

Don't you think, then, that it is extremely likely that it has happened many times that such people have been selected to be executed earlier than others on average, due to the monetary value of their organs?

Bibliography:

* https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6 (https://web.archive.org/web/20191118135832/https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6[archive]) "Analysis of official deceased organ donation data casts doubt on the credibility of China’s organ transplant reform" by Matthew P. Robertson, Raymond L. Hinde and Jacob Lavee published at "BMC Medical Ethics" which is part of Springer Nature in 14 November 2019
* The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China's Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ethan Gutmann, 2014
** <https://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Killings-Harvesting-Solution-Dissident/dp/161614940X>
** <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Gutmann#The_Slaughter:_Mass_Killings,_Organ_Harvesting,_and_China's_Secret_Solution_to_Its_Dissident_Problem>

====== 2018 China Tribunal

2018 https://chinatribunal.com/

This is a mock tribunal, i.e. one without any power of law, and was of course initially lobbied/organized brought up by FLG: https://endtransplantabuse.org/

However, Ciro Santilli believes that none of the lawyers / jury members are FLG believers, and that they are trying to honestly decide if there is enough evidence or not for organ harvesting in China.

They also have non-FLG witnesses.

Whether you believe in their partiality or not, I highly recommend watching some of what the witnesses, which I find very convincing and informative:

* https://youtu.be/oW3IaaXWE8s?t=7225 Swedish man who spent several years in prison in China

A notable precursor to mock tribunals is the link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Tribunal[Russel Tribunal].

Bibliography:

* Dr. Enver Tothi, has spoken openly about his organ harvesting activities in the 1990s in several tribunals in Europe
** 2020 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/surgeon-who-harvested-organs-slaughtered-21040274 "Surgeon who harvested organs of slaughtered dissident now London Uber driver"
** 2019 in EU parliament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n-9n897jIo
** 2017 Him speaking in : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY at Ireland's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY[House of the Oireachtas]

==== Things Ciro Santilli dislikes about Falun Gong

But also as explaining why I don't think it justifies the ban.

This section also gives me more credibility as a balanced critic >:-)

* <<flg-religion,Falun Gong downplays the fact that they are a religion>>

[[flg-organized]]
===== FLG downplays the fact that it is highly organized

Many FLG practitioners claim that they are not at all organized, or that they have no political interest, and I truly believe that they mean it.

But it is obvious from the size of the <<falun-gong-media>>, namely:

* <<new-tang-dynasty-television>>
* <<epoch-times>> newspaper
* <<shen-yun>> dance troupe

that in practice they do have are a highly organized hierarchical structure, and very likely with <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> at the very top, e.g.:

* Shen Yun's 2018 libretto says that their Artistic Director and founder is "D.F." (likely an abbreviation for Da Fa, which is an abbreviation for Falun Gong Dafa, which is a full name of Falun Gong), with a picture of LHZ on top. It also amusingly says that D.F. is a "Distinguished Professor of Music and Dance at Fei Tian College in New York", which is likely where many of Shen Yun's dancers are trained, and therefore controlled by himself to a large extent
* LHZ mentions NDTV, Epoch Times and Shen Yun extensively on his <<flg-canon>>. TODO link to source, this based on unintentionally overhearing to my family members reading it.

Furthermore, Falun Gong practitioners directly lobby foreign governments to take action against human rights abuses in China, e.g.:

* https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+MOTION+P7-RC-2013-0562+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN
* https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-court-cisco-must-be-held-accountable-aiding-chinas-human-rights-abuses

Like any other religion, they have all the right to take those actions, and it is definitely in their best interest, and perhaps in the best interest of the whole world, that they do so.

The only thing that annoys me is their lack of self perception on this matter: the large majority of Western people would definitely classify them as an organized political force after having observed their activities. When they say otherwise, they are hurting their own credibility.

[[flg-transparent]]
====== FLG media is not transparent about its affiliation

Agreed, and it is a point that hurts more than helps their cause.

But the media is not legally obliged to state their affiliation.

And if that were the case, then we should force _all_ newspapers to start taking polls of how many employees follow which religion and support which political party, and then put that in their print.

[[flg-intolerance]]
===== FLG dislikes several other groups like homosexuals and some other religions

Like most <<flg-religion,old religions>>.

Democracy dislikes dictators.

You and I dislike certain personality traits without any logical reason.

What matters is that we treat everyone with respect and without bias at work, even if we don't like them.

But the law can't force you to like everyone.

If one specific FLG member breaks a law by discriminating against someone, they should be punished just like anyone else.

See also:

* <<intolerance>>
* <<gay-rights>>

[[flg-medication]]
===== FLG believers are less likely to take necessary medication

Based on what <<ciro-santilli>> saw and heard, he does believe, without any clear statistical evidence, that it is very likely that it hs happened to in many cases that some Falun Gong believers refused to take modern medications and died of diseases that could be otherwise cured.

But consider the following:

* what matters are statistics. Maybe FLG people live longer than non FLG in average. But we will never have statistics because of censorship: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/27529/have-many-falun-gong-practitioners-forgone-medical-treatment-and-died-of-treatab
* maybe people should be link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation[allowed to choose how they want to die], not to take medication if they don't want to
* maybe the number of people killed during persecution vastly outnumbers those who died because they would not take medication
* several <<flg-religion,religions>>, including <<christianity>> have miraculous cure claims. My impression is that claims were mostly notable in the old times apparently, likely because people noticed that Christians were still dying of all kinds of diseases like everyone else, no matter how devout!
* maybe the main reason why communists banned FLG is the political threat it posed, but that a ban was unjustified given the situation. Christian crosses are being taken down as of 2016, have they stopped taking their medications as well? See also <<rule-of-law>>.
* maybe many of those people would also have died soon even if they had taken medication
* maybe not all Falun Gong believers thought that it was wise to stop taking medication. But their religion was banned anyway. Who can agree and follow all the innumerable prescriptions of any religious or legal system? See also: <<thoughtcrime>>.
* all the following also reduce people's lifespan:
+
--
** riding motorcycles vs. cars/buses
** smoking
** moving to a poor country to do charity there
** eating fast food
--
+
Forbidding them also has huge humanitarian costs (more expensive vehicles, creation of a black market, ...). So why not forbid them as well?

Especially In the beginning, Falun Gong did put a lot of emphasis on its health benefits, just <<zhong-gong,like all the other contemporaneous Qi Gong practices>>, and it is likely that especially many in the first generation of believers do believe it more than others.

For example, the main initial public announcement of Falun Gong was at a <<history-of-falun-gong,Health Exposition in Beijing>>.

In <<flg-canon>> itself, this is not super explicit and emphasised as far as Ciro can see. Zhuan Falun https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_74.htm[] has a chapter entitled "On the Issue of Healing Illnesses", that contains:

____
 Let us talk about the most common illnesses, like tumors, infections or osteoproliferation etc., found in the human body. In another space, a very deep space, there lies an evil intelligent entity.
____

and the general very beaty-around-the-bush suggestion that if you do master Falun Gong fully, you will be healthy. But with the usual disclaimer that "you have to become a master", and since "there are no graduates", no one is ever a master for sure, and as usual "you don't get the promised goodies", as as mentioned at: <<orange-papers>>.

Ciro does however believe that newer generations believe in this much less, notably because the first believer generation is all basically old or dead, and soon will be entirely dead. This might also have been de-emphasised to reduce the bullshit aspects and help the international spread of Falun Gong. Not even Falun Gong believers are that blind. And this perfectly mimics the beginning of Christianism, where the first generations gave much more emphasis to miraculous cures.

<<me-and-li-by-ben-hurley-2017>> has an anecdote on this, which Ciro feels sounds believable:

[[me-and-li-tumor]]
____
I think it was Lynn's* death that finally made me realise it was time to leave. I'd seen the writing on the wall about a year prior when I saw her at a yearly "Fa conference" for believers of Falun Gong, otherwise known as Falun Dafa, to exchange experiences and grow spiritually together. An executive assistant at a Queensland valuation firm, I'd gotten to know her over the years in various events as a warm and level-headed lady who had time for everyone. But I'd noticed she had developed a bulge on the side of her head and I was trying not to look at it when I talked to her. I saw, or at least I believed I saw, some pain in her smile. She was probably questioning herself over and over again what "attachments" she hadn't let go of that were causing this sickness to spread through her body and endanger her life. I wanted to tell her to just go to a hospital, although I wasn't at this stage resolute enough in my gradual return to logic. Another part of me feared that by looking at it I was acknowledging it — something you don't do with illnesses in Falun Gong because Master Li Hongzhi teaches that his pupils don't get illnesses. He can cure you but only if you don't have any loopholes in your belief in him and his teachings. Some people with solid beliefs can actually die due to others around them having flaws in their thinking, Li says. Just thinking the wrong way is perilous when you're a Falun Gong practitioner.

I later heard through the grapevine of Lynn’s death. The cancer went into her brain and she passed away in extreme pain, probably believing to the end that it was her fault she was in this awful predicament. In a way, I guess it was.
____

and more interesting anecdotes follow, see source.

And Ciro has felt this first hand with his <<wife,mother-in-law>>. Whenever she has a health worry, first she tries to hide it. But then she casually mentions it without much thought because she speaks all the time the poor lady, may she be blessed. And then, when Ciro says: OK, let's try and treat it, even for trivial things that might have simple treatments, she immediately smiles a compassionate smile of "I'm a Falun Gong believer, I don't need that". This makes Ciro really mad. He tries to not show it, because he thinks people should be able to choose how they die. But Li promises the powers of <<flg-cross-dimensional-vision,remote, cross dimensional and past/future vision>>. to some believers, and yet, blinds some of them to the obvious fact that they are aging, and, slowly but surely, their own bodies are starting to fail, like everyone else's will at one point.

It is also interesting to note how the Chinese government itself supported Falun Gong and <<zhong-gong,other Qi Gong practices>> for their health benefits, which is why they grew so large in the first place. <<li-hongzhi>> was even <<history-of-falun-gong,awarded prizes and recognized as a Qi Gong master by state backed organizations in 1992 and 1993>>. And the CCP still has a tendency to support certain non-scientific traditional practices: <<support-for-non-scientific-traditional-practices>>.

.https://youtu.be/kIpaDW3RwtY?t=244 one random thing ex-KGB spy undercover in the USA Jack Barsky mentioned in this BuzzFeed Multiplayer interview stuck to his mind: "The one thing that you have here, that I believe cannot be found anywhere else in the world is called Freedom, with a capital F". If people want to die in a certain way, or believe that some bullshit will cure them, they should be allowed. Natural selection will take care of the rest.
video::kIpaDW3RwtY[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=244]

[[li-hongzhi]]
===== FLG is dangerous because Li Hongzhi has too much power over followers 李洪志

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/李洪志

Li Hongzhi (LHZ, 李洪志) is the creator of FLG: link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi[].

Falun Gong people call him "master" (师父), which is a common traditional term used to respectfully address experienced teachers in a disciple (弟子)/teacher relation, e.g. Kung Fu or other crafts.

The term "master" is also used for example in the fictional film The Master (2012), which is likely inspired in <<flg-religion,Scientology>>.

<<ciro-santilli>> prefers to call him <<flg-religion,prophet>>, since he feels LHZ is indistinguishable from <<flg-religion,any other religion>>.

Ciro agrees that there is danger in every religion, and especially new religions.

However the same point can be made about political parties and in particular the CCP and its chairman.

Couldn't a charismatic leader chairman gain more and more power (like Xi seems to be doing), and eventually start a war and kill millions? Or just kill some minority who is not happy about the situation.

Similarly, any charismatic leader of a pro-democracy movement could become the leader of a terrorist organization.

If you ever want democracy, you will have to learn to accept the beliefs of others, and only punish them when they actually break a law.

Finally, LHZ was born in 1951, so he will die in 20 years, unless FLG is true and a miracle happens, and then this argument will become invalid.

From what Ciro hears, LHZ has always maintained that he is the only source of truth on FLG (see also "The Guru is always right"), and therefore, so his death will very likely remove any danger once and for all.

Furthermore, it also seems to Ciro that FLG is clearly anti-violence and self-harm, so Ciro wonder how many would follow a contradictory order such as killing or suicide? We have had no hint of any incitation to violence so far.

It is also interesting to look into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown case. When the suicide order came, most people wanted out! Without physically controlling the followers, I don't think you can make them do much.

It's funny that even though those events happened only 30 years ago, we know about Li just about as much as we know about Jesus! The only things which we can really picture in detail how they are are the well known locations themselves.

Li Hongzhi footage:

* 1999-06-12 AP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_onSZlvWSQ USA: "CHINA: FALUN DAFA CULT POSES NO THREAT CLAIMS FOUNDER" Li Hongzhi talks to media in New York

.Li Hongzhi is Falun Gong's prophet/cult leader/living God. He's a cute north-Western 东北人 like <<wife,Ciro's wife>>. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Li_Hongzhi_1.jpg[height=400]

.Li Hongzhi practicing one of his exercises with one of his cute prophet outfits in an extremely nice Chinese <<does-ciro-santilli-hate-china,stone garden>>. TODO exact location and date. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Li_Hongzhi_Falun_Gong.jpg[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Li_Hongzhi_Falun_Gong.jpg[height=600]

[[li-hongzhi-lotus]]
.Li going https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan[Super Saiyan] while casually sitting on a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_lotus_in_religious_art[giant Lotus flower] with a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(religious_iconography)[halo] on his head. https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/8022105562347289/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200226083545/https://i.pinimg.com/564x/32/fc/95/32fc954e99d658751da18a0b20ae2894.jpg[height=600]

.Dubstep Li can liangong at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubstep[dubstep] speed. https://giphy.com/gifs/dubstep-gifs-dubstepgifs-xUOwFY1prqgUdPuFvW[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200229161316if_/https://i.giphy.com/media/xUOwFY1prqgUdPuFvW/giphy.webp[height=400]

====== Let's make a mini series about Li Hongzhi's life

Ciro can't help but to imagine how Falun Gong came about in detail.

Someone should write a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(novel)["The Last Temptation of Christ"].

This deserves an American miniseries like Chernobyl.

It would manage to piss off both FLG and the CCP, which would be amazing. It is a shame that it is so difficult to find good historical information between the infinite barrages of CCP and FLG propaganda.

It could show how:

* Li was an ordinary dude who could liked to play the trumpet, which partially explains his focus on <<falun-gong-media,Shen Yun>> and Falun Gong musical street parades
* Li first heard about Qi Gong, and went to practice it under some dude. Then how he saw other people were so into it, and decided to take this opportunity to make a career out of it during the 80's
* how he met his wife and had a daughter
* how he started to notice how people were feeling things during the exercise classes, and started suggesting more and more metaphysics to these first disciples
* Li could also have some metaphysical moment, like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW20LbwAmng but at the same time, he must tell his followers some lies which he does not believe
* how followers started telling others things and "experience sharing" where the cycle of belief stats to take off
* a clear demonstration of how "A group of early adopters in Changchun became disenchanted after Li forbade his followers from charging fees for the practice at the end of 1994" showing dissent within the cult
* and finally, the immigration and crackdown, and how he put his fingers on those things, and the creation of media, this could be the last episode

Episodes could be split along:

* Episode 1: pre Qi Gong, shows Childhood, workplaces, early motivations. Ends with first contact with a Qi Gong lesson
* Episode 2: early Falun Gong. Opens an academy. Starts without metaphysics, but grows into it. Show him knowingly lying, but also seething magic things. The first followers, and top lieutenants. Makes some management mistake, but escapes. Could end in a metaphysical scene, or 13 May 1992 initial public lesson. Maybe a scene of Li's visit to Thailand in 1983 (photo from CCP media found on Google).
* Episode 3: later Falun Gong in China. It grows, show in Chinese news. Power struggles, problems with early lieutenants, and new lieutenants come up. Many people practice on streets. Battle against <<zhong-gong>>. Near 1996, something tips Li off to the fact that the CCP is going to crack down on them, and so he announces that he will be spreading abroad full time. Check out if this was before or after the first Anti FLG newspaper article in 1996-06-17.
* Episode 4: preaching outside of China and emigration. American permanent residence in 1998. Watches crackdown on television. International Falun Gong media. Show him at Falun Gong New York <<dragon-springs,"Dragon Springs">> complex

Parts of the series could be filmed in <<taiwan>> maybe?

Source material: <<history-of-falun-gong>>.

[[li-hongzhis-family]]
====== Li Hongzhi's family 李洪志的家庭

At least Jesus appeared to value chastity. He was even born from a virgin right? No sex around him at all.

But Li doesn't need that. He's a God right, he can both be an Enlightened God part time and still have a normal family part time.

Once thing Ciro approves about Li's approach to his family is that he seems to have stated (TODO source) that none of them are Gods like him.

Wife's name: Li Rui (李瑞 according to CCP). Report saying that a follower bought a house and registered it on Li Rui's name as a gift, but Li later returned the gift back: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB94140245836194819 TODO house address.

<<benjamin-penny-the-religion-of-falun-gong-2012>> gives further family members (some of them are based only on CCP sources however):

* daughter: Li Meige (李美歌) claims born 1982-06 on <<kaiwind>> http://www.kaiwind.com/anticult/kfgc/201311/05/t20131105_1188845.shtml says that she performs in <<shen-yun>> under the name "Christina Li" and even won awards. This Falun Gong sources confirm that a "Christina Li" was a Shen Yun lead dancer as of 2011, but does not confirm that she is the daughter of Li Hongzhi: https://www.theepochtimes.com/where-are-the-ancient-arts-of-china-part-4_1491935.html If this is true, talk about <<orange-papers,"different levels of truth">>! The article also claims that she has had other pseudonyms, including: "Annie Li" and "Li Jingjing" (李晶晶). Here are web archives of the now broken of course Shen Yun pages Kaiwand links to as evidence of her constant name changing (but no mention of her father):
** https://web.archive.org/web/20140727034323/http://dance.ntdtv.com/ct/archive/
** https://web.archive.org/web/20121211022246/zh-cn.shenyunperformingarts.org/artists/biography/view/WG3gbBQudOg
** possibly CCP sources report that Meige married in 2017, likely near the Falun Gong Day (13th May): e.g. http://www.saibeifeng.com/kfyd/201705/16/t20170516_5219554.shtml says many felicitation posts were posted on <<falun-gong-media,minghui>>, so this is likely widely known within the Falun Gong community, but the idiots who wrote that page don't know how to link to sources. Ciro could not find the groom's name.
* brothers and sisters, all younger:
** Li Jun (李君) older younger sister
** Li Ping (李平) younger younger sister
*** Notably, Li Ping's alleged husband Sun Senjun (孙森伦) is a Chinese-Thai, and allegedly wrote an account of Li Hongzhi's family in the 1980's "我与李洪志一家在泰国的日子——法轮功教主妹夫的自述" ("Diary's of being in Thailand with Li Hongzhi's family") https://www.cp1897.com.hk/product_info.php?BookId=9789996590252[ISBN 9789996590252] This is reproduced on many CCP sources, e.g.: http://lihongzhidaqidi.blogspot.com/2013_09_27_archive.html but it is good reading if you take everything with a grain of salt, does sound believable. TODO find original publishing location. This appears to be an interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js0OyNwYw5A (watermarked <<kaiwind>> on top)
** Li Hui (AKA Li Donghui) younger brother
* father: Li Dan
* mother: Lu Shuzhen

There are also claims that Li's birth name was Li Lai (李來).

This claims to contain the biography of Li Hongzhi's family (likely all according to CCP sources), including several good pictures: https://kknews.cc/zh-hk/news/bbmz49.html The photo given there for Li Jun appears on this apparently FLG source without mention of the name: https://www.epochweekly.com/b5/103/5805.htm

.Li Hongzhi with his wife Lirue and daughter Limeige presumably in the late 80's with fishing ships in a shipyard in the background. TODO location. Likely from CCP sources, in many places with <<chinese-government-media,kaiwnd>> watermarks. https://renjianzhengdao2019.blogspot.com/2019/05/blog-post_187.html[Pro-CCP source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200515122059im_/https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4TGKtu8U3klyY_ld6bTpc9PnPOfSZppkEAl7gO6d9PghQbaJii4mykTlbMBtY7GYt_hCbw7Z1h3zohncGGn19vxr3ANWAUZUO6npqJsLlJCND_Nj8BqslNUaQBH1fzyY=s0-d[height=400]

.Photo of Christina Li from Shen Yun, which the CCP claims to be Li Meige, daughter of Li Hongzhi. That page also claims that she was awarded Bronze in the 2009 and 2010 NDT Chinese Dance Competition. https://web.archive.org/web/20121211022246/zh-cn.shenyunperformingarts.org/artists/biography/view/WG3gbBQudOg[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20130704134123im_/http://www.shenyunperformingarts.org/data/image/small/2010/12/09/17326d10d511828f6b34fa6d751739e2.jpg[height=400]

====== Dragon Springs

Li Hongzhi's Falun Gong complex in New York state countryside.

https://goo.gl/maps/4bqt18CSBmFSekw89

Started in the 2000's in New York State with money donated by believers.

* http://www.dragonsprings.org/
* https://www.businessinsider.com/dragon-springs-falun-gong-upstate-new-york-compound-photos-2019-9
* 1999 https://apnews.com/420a741ec19c4db3993d408747874b2d "Falun Gong US compound’s neighbors fret over expansion plans"

[[flg-telemarketing]]
===== Some Falun Gong people make phone telemarketing

Ciro Santilli has seen Falun Gong people making phone calls to people in China with to explain why FLG is with his own eyes, and therefore is sure it has happened on some scale.

Particularly during <<corona>>, Falun Gong ramped up the telemarketing calls and some voluntary believers were making calls all day nonstop.

Ciro does not know how the called numbers were obtained and if callees voluntarily signed up for it, but that feels extremely unlikely.

Interestingly however, many of the callees seemed interesting in what they had to say, and they often had long chats, Ciro was surprised by that. Maybe they were just bored senseless due to the Corona lockdown. Or maybe <<most-chinese-people-like-their-dictatorship,many Chinese People actually don't like their Government>> and the CCP is fucked.

Also, of course, the callers received call scripts and guidelines to makes those calls, because obviously <<flg-organized>>.

It also seems that this telemarketing had <<li-hongzhi>>'s direct approval, although Ciro does not have proof of that.

Ciro strongly disapproves of this, Just like for any product, visual ads on the street are impossible to prevent, but any kind of advertising that generates notifications on feeds, or takes people's time, is unacceptable.

Ciro has not however seen them talking about making automated phone calls.

https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1940394/how-rampant-phone-scams-highlight-chinas-need-tighter also mentions that Falun Gong makes telemarketing in passing without any reference.

[[zhong-gong]]
==== Zhong Gong 中华养生益智功 (中功)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhong_Gong
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中华养生益智功

A very similar religion to <<falun-gong>>, that also emerged during the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong_fever[Qigong fever] (气功热) of the '80s and '90s.

The similarity of their imagery as seen from propaganda videos is striking. To <<ciro-santilli>>, this makes Zhong Gong a perfect example of why <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,FLG metaphysics is bullshit>>: it is obvious that both Zhong Gong and Falun Gong and many others were just random dudes who took advantage of the Qigong fever to create their religions.

Their prophet is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Hongbao[Zhang Hongbao] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/张宏堡[张宏堡]).

Interestingly, like <<li-hongzhi>>, Hongbao is also from the Northeast of China (Heilongjiang), there must be a reason why those Qi Gong movements come from that region.

Unlike Falun Gong however, Zhong Gong failed to branch the franchise out of China, and basically died out. He also died in a car crash in 2006 which didn't help. Li Hongzhi however played smarter, and started branching abroad full force in 1996, he might have predicted that the crackdown was inevitale.

Wikipedia says it reached 34 million followers in China.

Hongbao also has a more spicy history it seems, with sexual allegations and open political goals <<flg-political,unlike Li Hongzhi, who hid his goals better>>. Well played, Li, well played.

<<li-hongzhi>> maintains in <<flg-canon,canon>> that Falun Gong is of course extremely different from all of those other extremely similar Qi Gong religions (not sure if Zhong Gong is mentioned, but is it definitely one of the main targets).

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX72zfEP_zs googd Zhong Gong playlist
* https://youtu.be/uYH8Y_1UmrY?list=PLQM6pSUVxrEhL1Zf2Hg9J87HAlgOS1RXy&t=1445 Zhong Gong people "experience sharing". It truly is exactly like Falun Gong.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2GxSJK9c-A this appears to be positive mainstream media coverage of Zhong Gong
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ziluy_AlEI video of Hongbao giving a lecture dated 1994 and commented "Qiling kylin Tianhua culture"
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQKCtPSfdR4 video dated January 21st, 2007 of Monks praying after his death
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvJSzeY7Chw contains a bunch of what appear to be extremely low quality Zhong Gong propaganda videos. It is very similar to Falun Gong's of course.

The embassy spokesman says Chinese officials have ample evidence of sect leader Zhang Hongbao's involvement in crimes such as rape and murder.

.Zhang Honbao on a giant flying lotus reaching Enlightenment with a halo. It looks <<li-hongzhi-lotus,exactly like Falun Gong imagery>>. But of course, Zhong Gong is just a "completely unrelated and inferior sect" according to <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>. https://blog.boxun.com/hero/201102/tianhuaren/1_1.shtml[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200513103353if_/https://blog.boxun.com/hero/201102/tianhuaren/tianhuaren2011021802234.jpg[height=400]

[[zhong-gong-blue]]
.The blue background, the halos, the praying hands, the master Zhang Hongbao flying above. It is just exactly like <<flg-blue,Falun Gong imagery>>. https://www.chinacourt.org/article/detail/2018/08/id/3475129.shtml[Source] (<<chinese-government-media,biased>>)
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200513103231im_/http://file.chinacourt.org/f.php?class=imageid&id=1814106[height=400]

[[flg-blue]]
.Hungarian Falun Gong propaganda image with woman meditating in with blue sky background for comparison with <<zhong-gong-blue,similar Zhong Gong imagery>>. https://hu.faluninfo.eu/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20181009052816if_/http://hu.faluninfo.eu//images/201709/slide01-hu.jpg[height=400]

[[qigong-fever]]
===== Qigong fever Boom 气功热 (1980's)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong_fever

AKA Qigong Boom.

* https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/26268612 特异功能、法功灭火、铝锅传功……80年代的气功热究竟有多疯狂？ How crazy was the Qi Gong boom after all?

==== Falun Gong bibliography

* https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-Chinese-government-against-Falun-Gong
* https://www.zhihu.com/question/23988890 at <<zhihu>>
* https://www.orange-papers further developed at: <<flg-cult>>

[[me-and-li-by-ben-hurley-2017]]
===== Me and Li by Ben Hurley (2017)

https://medium.com/@Ben_D_Hurley/-10677166298b "Me and Li" by Ben Hurley published on October 23, 2017.

This post by a former believer gives what <<ciro-santilli>> feels is a realistic account that matches Ciro's observations.

Interesting quotes:

* <<me-and-li-tumor>>