README.adoc

** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3T_Dd3O1UM spoke against the <<2019-hong-kong-anti-extradition-bill-protests>>
** https://www.thestandard.com.hk/section-news/fc/21/216376/Police-chief-says-Jackie-Chan-made-him
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Yifei#Controversy[Liu Yifei 刘亦菲] who starred in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulan_(2020_film)[Mulan 2020] Disney movie
** https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/16/disneys-mulan-star-sparks-call-for-boycott-with-hong-kong-stance opposed the <<2019-hong-kong-anti-extradition-bill-protests>>, notably saying "What a shame for Hong Kong". The <<chinese-government-media,People's Daily>> later quoted her: https://web.archive.org/web/20190816162331/http://en.people.cn/n3/2019/0816/c90000-9606859.html[]

=== What should pro-democracy Chinese living in China do about the dictatorship?

First of all, hide and stay safe, unless you can deal the final blow. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_at_War[World at war, 1973], ep. 16:

____
A dictatorship is like a snake. If you put your foot on its tail as you do it, it will just bite you and no body will be helped. You have to strike the head.
____

Once that is taken care of, a few good options are:

* if you are a psychopath, while hiding your thoughts, manipulate your enemies, infiltrate the power circles, and go up the ladder
* if you are an innovator, leave China and come work for the West. Don't strengthen commie power.

And regardless: remember your kids that the commies are bastards every day.

[[reply-policy]]
=== Ciro Santilli's reply policy 三西猴的回答政策

People get kind of passionate sometimes about politics. And some of them might also be just malicious <<wumao,wumaos>>, although it is generally not possible to distinguish between them.

If you are not a wumao, consider this:

* Ciro Santilli is one, and antagonists are millions. It is therefore not possible to reply to all antagonists.
* Ciro has in the past tried to be nice to stupid people, and they gave nasty replies
* all discussion is useless, <<effect,only the keyword attack has any chance of having any effect, and even that is slim>>

In order to not waste too much time on those, Ciro Santilli use the following strategy.

If the original thread post is not very interesting, try to parse it quickly and reply once, always <<better-to-do,linking to the FAQ>>, and then unfollow the thread. This shows that you're still alive, and takes little effort.

Then do your best to never read the inevitable reply again. An interesting reply never follows from a non-interesting original post. It is hard at first, but you will eventually get the hang of it.

If the user keeps generating notifications, warning + temporary block as per link:CONTRIBUTING.md[].

If initial post is outright useless and offensive, direct user block, with a link to the link:CONTRIBUTING.md[].

Another reply strategy by C.K. Hung which might be of interest is: https://ckhung0.blogspot.com/2017/07/50-cents-party.html

For outbursts of activity from Chinese websites, usually programming (v2ex, hacpai, pingcong), only post the following canned answer and nothing else, because cowards/people who don't know English from the website might delete your posts, so you shouldn't waste time there with that shit:

____
大家你好

关于我常见问题我在我的GitHub中国FAQ repository回答了好几个。

你们要是在那儿找不到一个回答，清在那个repository开一个issue，我马上就回答。

我不要再在这个网页评论。
____

Finally, don't forget the golden rule from https://biblehub.com/proverbs/26-4.htm[Proverbs 26:4]:

____
Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are.
____

which is now usually seen on the form https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/66460/origin-of-do-not-argue-with-idiots[of unclear attribution]:

____
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
____

Where basically idiot == someone who creates posts that obviously aren't teaching you any new useful thing, or that not praising you :-)

Alternatively, there is also the Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengyu[chengyu] version:

____
对牛弹琴
____

which means:

____
Playing the <<music,qin>> to a cow.
____

which means to talk to someone who does not have intellectual conditions of understanding what you are trying to say, bibliography:

* https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinese-idiom-playing-the-qin-to-a-cow_766205.html
* https://baike.baidu.com/item/对牛弹琴/3490

.Cartoon depiction of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengyu[chengyu] "Playing the <<music,qin>> to a cow" 《对牛弹琴》. https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/438181067.html[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20200120094357im_/https://iknow-pic.cdn.bcebos.com/a8773912b31bb051adcb2e6a3b7adab44bede081?x-bce-process=image/resize,m_lfit,w_600,h_800,limit_1[height=600]

.XKCD 386 "Duty Calls" and the famous "Someone is wrong on the Internet" quote. It is a waste of time to be like that. https://xkcd.com/386/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191113231107if_/https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png[height=400]

=== Who is behind this amazing FAQ?

[[ciro-santilli]]
==== Ciro Santilli 三西猴

Original creator: https://cirosantilli.com/

[[wife]]
===== Ciro Santilli's wife 三西猴的老婆

Born and raised in China: <<why-does-ciro-santilli-love-china-so-much>>.

She and her mother do <<falun-gong>>, see also, see also: <<flg-bias>>.

Believes to be descendant of the brother of a recent Qing emperor, see also: <<throne>>.

For this same reason, her father, who Ciro's wife worships, spent around 10 years in the 50's for being branded a counter revolutionary rightist (右派) during one of <<mao-zedong,Mao's>> purges, possibly:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_to_Suppress_Counterrevolutionaries https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/镇压反革命运动
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Rightist_Campaign https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/反右运动

=== How do different websites view Ciro Santilli's profile?

<<meant-to-be-used>> contains a more general overview. This contains website specifics.

==== Stack Overflow

The current consensus says that keyword attacks are allowed:

* https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/286082/does-the-be-nice-policy-require-se-users-to-be-nice-to-people-who-are-not-se-u
* https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/267368/are-political-avatars-and-profiles-ok
* https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/299882/can-a-username-be-considered-spam
* https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/299882/can-a-username-be-considered-spam
* https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/349131/users-political-display-name-triggering-government-action-against-users-who-vie

The Chinese law doesn't I'm afraid :-( https://advox.globalvoices.org/2015/04/16/new-internet-rules-in-china-target-usernames-avatars-as-subversive-tools/

==== GitHub

GitHub's site policy can be seen at: https://help.github.com/en/github/site-policy

If you believe this page violates those policies, you can click the report abuse button on https://github.com/cirosantilli[Ciro's profile], which links to: https://github.com/contact/report-abuse?report=cirosantilli+%28user%29 or you can just contacat support@github.com

If you do so, please feel free to also open an issue on this repository saying why you believe the site policy has been violated.

Those issues will be marked with: https://github.com/cirosantilli/china-dictatorship/labels/abuse-report

It will be fun to watch you try, and fail.

This is because you do not understand how important the concept of <<richer,freedom of speech is>> in the West, and how amazing it feels when you are right, and it protects you.

The only thing that would work is if the Chinese government makes a gov-takedown on this repo: <<github-gov-takedowns>>, in which case: <<strategy-if-this-repo-gets-added-to-github-gov-takedowns>>.

===== GitHub gov-takedowns

https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns

GitHub has absolute transparency on Government takedowns, which is awesome: https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns/tree/master/China

This makes that repo into a list of fun things.

As of 2019-05 there had only been only 2 takedowns by China however, compared to dozens by <<russia>>. The Chinese commies are not big fans of transparency it seems.

As of 2020-03, besides the Zhao takedown, all other takedowns happened in 2019, and most seem to be <<falun-gong,Falun Gong>>/<<falun-gong-media,Epoch Times>> sponsored ways to <<censorship-circumvention,climb the wall>>.

The message GitHub shows on the blocked countries is:

____
Repository unavailable in your location

This repository is currently disabled in your location. For more details please see the takedown notice.
____

Here are some examples of people reacting to the blocking of https://github.com/programthink/zhao/issues/38 as per https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns/blob/78775b09e64d85f08547287cab204b48b2491192/China/2016/2016-06-08-programthink-zhao.md from China (and likely on the entire repository, which appears to be the block granularity implemented):

* https://github.com/programthink/books/issues/31 (http://web.archive.org/web/20191023093618/https://github.com/programthink/books/issues/31[archive])
* https://www.zhihu.com/question/284445884/
* https://program-think.blogspot.com/2018/04/Zhao-at-GitHub.html?comment=1524671692761#1524671692761

See also: <<programthink>>

To check China only takedowns such as this, we cannot use <<censorship-monitoring,Great Fire Analyzer>>, which reports the page as accessible: the only tool I could find so far to capture a page from China a bit like Web Archive was: https://www.geoscreenshot.com which takes screenshots of the websites, but the free trial is very limited, and you can't share the screenshots. See also: <<censorship-monitoring>>.

====== Strategy if this repo gets added to GitHub gov-takedowns

If this happens, we well proceed to create alternative repos `china-dictatorship-2`, `china-dictatorship-3`, etc. and it would be fun to see how that gets handled.

Can they add an entire user to gov-takedowns?

But remember that we also have: <<mirrors>>, and that this can be easily rendered as a single HTML page and uploaded to any static website host.

===== Other interesting GitHub information repositories

* taibangle (太棒了)
** https://github.com/taibangle/awesome-china
** https://github.com/taibangle/lennon-wall

[[zhihu]]
==== Zhihu 知乎

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhihu

The Chinese <<quora,Quora>> clone with Chinese characteristics (<<censorship,political censorship>>).

[[zhihu-purge]]
===== Ciro Santilli's Zhihu purge 2019-11-03

Ciro received an email from account@mail.zhihu.com:

____
您好，Ciro Santilli，很抱歉您的回答受到了牵连，您回答过的问题「github.com@cirosantilli 是谁维护的，为什么会收集邮箱地址？」因「违反互联网相关法律法规」已被删除。
____

followed by Ciro's answer to <<zhihu-46957710>>. Ciro could not login anymore, the login screen showed:

____
帐号已停用，请联系：user@zhihu.com
____

So likely someone must have used the fact that this was an edgy personal information release subject issue, and then someone from Zhihu decided to purge Ciro and anyone posts that ever talked about him.

Note that not only the posts made by Ciro himself were deleted: he had never asked any questions or made any Zhuanlan posts himself, only replied to those. But that content made by other users was still removed. Therefore, this is not just a simple user ban, but active censorship.

Ciro's blocked account:

* before deletion: http://web.archive.org/web/20190821075907/https://www.zhihu.com/people/cirosantilli/activities
* after deletion (redirects to login page): http://web.archive.org/web/20191103071033/https://www.zhihu.com/signin?next=http://www.zhihu.com/people/cirosantilli/activities

Random unblocked control account: https://www.zhihu.com/people/lu-zhen-yu-96-65/activities (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103070652/https://www.zhihu.com/people/lu-zhen-yu-96-65/activities[archive]).

Furthermore, all questions related to Ciro, including the posts criticizing him such as https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/25600138[] (http://archive.is/DkooN[archive]), were taken down. This made Ciro laugh: in China, you can't even criticize that which is censored, or your post also gets taken down.

Ciro then created an anonymous Zhihu account after this event.

====== Ciro Santilli's Zhihu ban 2018-06-25

<<ciro-santilli>> was banned from Zhihu on 2018-06-25 for "politically sensitive" content.

As a result, since that time I will be answering Zhihu questions as issues in this repo with the https://github.com/cirosantilli/china-dictatorship/labels/zhihu[label `zhihu`].

I have however never posted anything politically sensitive on Zhihu, unless my name and profile picture have reached that distinction, and therefore the ban is clearly an unfair per-person ban.

But of course, all is fair in love and war, and politics.

Posting any sensitive content on Chinese websites is a waste of time, since it only means that they will be removed and you will waste time creating a new account, I will never do that.

The only significant content I ever posted on Zhihu is the answer to: https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710/answer/122827944 which is purely technical, and trivial replies on threads that other people have started about me. Have those people been blocked like me?

My posts are still up and it does not appear to be possible for people to see that I have been banned, but whenever I try to take any action on the website a popup appears saying:

____
由于严重违反 知乎社区管理规定 ，该帐号已被永久禁言
____

This includes liking, commenting, answering, asking or trying to update my profile to say that I have been blocked.

This message also shows on my public page for everyone to see: https://www.zhihu.com/people/cirosantilli/activities but they use some JavaScript scheme complicated enough that archive.is cannot capture it.

I still get notifications however, but I am unable to reply to them, specially given that all Chinese accounts, unlike mine, have no personal identifiable information due to the understandable fear Chinese citizens have of their own government (even though such accounts https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/27/china-doubles-down-on-real-name-registration-laws-forbidding-anonymous-online-posts/[might be illegal in theory to my understanding]).

The only action that I can take now is to report abusive comments people make to me.

Obviously, the only effect of such ban is that I will create an anonymous account under Tor with a second cell phone if I wish to contribute in the future, and China will have less information about my political interests than before.

The private messages the website sends while banning you are:

____
知乎管理员 ：您好，根据用户举报，您的帐号发布了「政治敏感」内容，帐号已根据知乎社区规范被永久禁言。处理详情可查看社区服务中心。具体规范请查看知乎社区管理规定。 6月25日 16:37 回复 | 删除

知乎管理员 ：您好，根据用户举报，您的部分个人信息由于不符合知乎用户信息管理规范已被重置。用户名可以在设置页面中修改，修改后会自动进入审核等待通过；其他个人信息可以在个人主页中编辑。感谢您对知乎社区的理解和支持。 6月25日 16:37 回复 | 删除
____

Those messages contain links to: https://www.zhihu.com/terms2 | http://archive.is/wdXSz and https://www.zhihu.com/question/19551824 | http://archive.is/BrgV2

The ban came soon after I posted a link to my GitHub repo as a comment at: https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/21/ice-employee-list-github-linkedin/ maybe they are related.

====== Who reported Ciro Santilli on Zhihu

At the same time the ban happened I received a public comment from user "Eureka" https://www.zhihu.com/people/crb912/activities | http://archive.is/1F3t6 on this thread: https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710 | http://archive.is/PVOLd saying:

____
你滥用了github， 也滥用了Stackover。这个一个纯粹计算机、编程和知识分享的地方，请不要带入政治性的色彩。请不要这么做， 维护社区的非政治性、中立和技术性纯粹，是每个热爱cs的人应尽的义务。
____

I am unable to get an URL that shows the comment on archive.is, so I have no proof of this claim. If you trust me, then here is a screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/YCiEEax

Since I expect the ban lists to be private, I find it extremely likely that this was the user who reported me, unless both were simultaneously triggered by a third event which I have not seen. So correct me if I'm wrong here.

Users with the same user id `crb912`, related "Eureka" username or same profile picture, can be found at:

* https://www.weibo.com/crb912 (unable to archive)
* https://github.com/crb912 | http://archive.is/heGfd which suggests a possible real name

By Googling the email found on the GitHub repos, we find: http://www.360doc.com/content/15/0809/11/25724933_490492490.shtml | http://archive.is/2UnGL which might, at last, contain a photo of my nemesis.

My public message to the reporter whomever he may be:

____
While you have also raised issues that were raised a thousand times before, and clearly answered in the FAQ, at least you were able to take some actual action leading to an actual ban, and I respect you for that.

I hope that one day you will redirect that cunning and initiative towards taking down the root cause of the problem, which are the Chinese communist Party and their Firewall themselves.
____

===== Zhihu questions related to Ciro Santilli

Parent section: <<backlinks>>

All Zhihu posts related to Ciro Santilli were deleted following <<zhihu-purge>>. Some had been deleted before.

* 2019-06-12: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/68869259 (http://web.archive.org/web/20190905071450/https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/68869259[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103072349/https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/68869259[archive after deletion])) "德国极端分子黑我们大中国！犯我中华者，虽远必诛！！". Ciro wonders why the poster thought Ciro was German.
* 2019-03: https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700162 (http://archive.is/ewxqb[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065512/http://web.archive.org/screenshot/https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700162[archive after deletion])) "如何看待Github Trending上Ciro Santilli的众多开源项目？". Due to: https://github.com/cirosantilli/x86-bare-metal-examples being featured on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19428700
* 2018-11: https://www.zhihu.com/question/302738350 (http://archive.is/lkQxS[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065759/https://www.zhihu.com/question/302738350[archive after deletion])) "如何评价Ciro Santilli对Stack Overflow和GitHub的扰乱？"
* 2017-03-07: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/25600138 (http://archive.is/DkooN[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065808/https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/25600138[archive after deletion])) "StackOverflow 上的一个智障用户"
** 2017-03 https://sololand.moe/2017/03/06/brain-fucked-user-on-stackoverflow (http://web.archive.org/save/https://sololand.moe/2017/03/06/brain-fucked-user-on-stackoverflow/[archive]) by https://github.com/brglng/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20180802090918/https://github.com/brglng/[archive]) "StackOverflow 上的一个智障用户"
* 2015-08-18: http://www.zhihu.com/question/34775392 (https://web.archive.org/web/20160219094646/https://www.zhihu.com/question/34775392[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065816/https://www.zhihu.com/question/34775392[archive after deletion])) "你们怎么看stackoverflow上某人故意屏蔽中国访问的事件？"

A random control question that shows that archive.org 404's are actually deleted questions: https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700165 (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065449/https://www.zhihu.com/question/316700165[archive]).

Mentions not yet deleted as of writing:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/21099730 从知乎建站以来被封禁的用户都有哪些？Since Zhihu's founding, which accounts have been blocked on the website? (http://web.archive.org/web/20200112103049/https://www.zhihu.com/question/21099730[archive]) (http://archive.is/dH9pK[archive]). The top answer contains a list, and a brief explanation of why some of them were banned:
** Ciro Santilli: S/O 红人 (fStack Overflow celebrity)
** "ww" in explanations means "big laugh" according to: https://hinative.com/zh-CN/questions/8349706 because a single "w" means a small laugh
** several accounts are linked to one specific answer or comment
** other accounts are classified as often commenting on politically sensitive material (政治敏感)

[[zhihu-46957710]]
====== github.com@cirosantilli 是谁维护的，为什么会收集邮箱地址？

https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710 (http://archive.is/PVOLd[archive before deletion], (http://web.archive.org/web/20191103065828/https://www.zhihu.com/question/46957710[archive after deletion])).

Asked in 2016-09 after Ciro published: https://github.com/cirosantilli/all-github-commit-emails

Deleted after <<zhihu-purge>>. Ciro's answer before deletion:

____
你用的git config user.email当然是公开的：谁都会git clone就知道了。

问题就是git repository很大，我们不会都clone.

但是github有一个API，收集很多信息，包括邮件。

然后，Google用了那个API给他们的https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/...信息。

BigQuery对程序员很容易提取信息，是我用的。

我发表邮件以后，两个东西变化了：

1. Google 把邮件从BigQuery删除
2. GitHub 更新他们的隐私声明GitHub Privacy Statement

这就是我的木比：保护人们的隐私权

我的README.md更详细地解释。
____

==== Quora

https://www.quora.com/profile/Ciro-Santilli

Quora is a generally shitty website, with mechanisms that allow <<wumao,wumaos>> to quench freedom of speech.

* 2016 Ciro Santilli's profile was blocked because it had Chinese keywords on both my username and credentials. Justification: non-English.
* 2017 created one in English: Cook <<tiananmen,Tiananmen Square>> Noodle Shop.
+
Added my Noodle shop to maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Tiananmen+Square+Noodle+Shop/@60.6132538,15.6687509,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x94603408e3c63fb3!8m2!3d60.6132538!4d15.6687509
+
Leach websites that picked it up: http://kvalster.se/Falu/Uthyres/Lagenheter/Gammelvagen_49_1417351

Quora is also shitty because wumaos can downvote your answer privately regardless of reputation and make it become collapsed as "Answer may need improvement", which means it goes to the bottom and readers have to click an "expand collapsed answers" button to see it, so that very few people will ever see it. Then have to appeal and wait for moderators to evaluate it. This happened for example at: https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-I-walked-around-Beijing-with-a-t-shirt-that-said-freedom-of-speech-is-pretty-great/answer/Ciro-Santilli (see also <<t-shirt>>). Ciro appealed in 2020-03-10 and the answer was reinstated on day later, but by then the question was already not being suggested as much to readers, and the other wumao answers (which criticize the USA rather than answering the question about China).

Other shitty aspects of Quora include:

* automatically add random topics that you don't care about to your suggestions, with no easy way to prevent that.
* questions cannot have more than one sentence. There used to be a question body, but it was replaced with a "link for context". Ridiculous.

As a result, on the few occasions that Ciro posts on Quora, all content will also be mirrored here. Ciro's China Quora answers include:

* https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-I-walked-around-Beijing-with-a-t-shirt-that-said-freedom-of-speech-is-pretty-great/answer/Ciro-Santilli[What would happen if I walked around Beijing with a t-shirt that said "freedom of speech is pretty great"?] see also: <<t-shirt>>
* https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-net-worth-of-Xi-Jinping/answer/Ciro-Santilli[What is the net worth of Xi Jinping?] see also: <<panama-papers>>

[[ptt]]
==== PTT Bulletin Board System 批踢踢實業坊

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System | https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/批踢踢

Popular <<taiwan,Taiwanese>> forum system and server from 1995, pre HTML, works from telnet terminal, so likely very programmer heavy, and obviously anti-CCP, as of 2020 often shows <<falun-gong>> ads.

Ciro Santilli's appearances on PTT:

* 2020-01-31: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1580484253.A.37A.html "stackoverflow菁英卻痛恨中國" by https://pttweb.tw/user/Eric0605/["Eric0605 (我還有點餓)"] on the Gossiping board
* 2017-06-19 https://pttweb.tw/s/2K9zV "Ciro Santilli 709大抓捕 六四事件 法轮" on the Gossiping board
* 2016-10-03 https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Soft_Job/M.1478104872.A.916.html "Github也出現網軍了嗎?" by gocreating on the Soft_Job board

Archaic, fucking impossible to learn how to use. Ciro Santilli hasn't managed yet, so if you want a reply from him, open an issue on this repo instead.

TODO: can anyone comment, without having a Taiwanese university address? This suggests no: https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/1etbvb/anyone_on_pttcc_advice_suggestions/ Also asked at:

* https://www.quora.com/unanswered/Can-you-comment-on-the-PTT-Bulletin-Board-System-at-ptt-cc-from-Taiwan-without-working-or-studying-at-a-Taiwanese-university
* https://github.com/cirosantilli/china-dictatorship/issues/92

Normal people see it on a web viewer hosted on: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/index.html

However it is fucking impossible to web archive that web interface because there is a cookie I'm 18-years-old confirmation before the first connection.

This shows how to connect for the first time: https://www.ptt.cc/index.firstbbs.html

One attempt is:

....
luit -encoding big5 telnet ptt.cc
....

But the main page says:

"本站目前暫停開放新帳號註冊。" "This site is currently suspended for new account registration."

And you try `new` it says: "目前無法註冊帳號![按任意鍵繼續]" "Account cannot be registered at this time."

OK, ptt2 went further:

....
luit -encoding big5 telnet ptt2.cc
....

Then there is a registration process that seem to require you to prove that you work at Taiwanese university, but not sure it is mandatory to post.

But I couldn't find Gossiping there either, which is the only board that matters, so not sure it is on this server.

[[christianity]]
=== Christianity 基督教

The commies are not a fan. But as someone once told me: the commies are not a fan of a bunch of things!

As mentioned at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China there are only a few state approved churches under total CCP control, and the others are forbidden. For example one of them is called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Patriotic_Catholic_Association[Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association]! God and CCP on the same sentence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII[Pope Pius XII] excommunicated people from that organization who were appointing new Bishops!

* 2018-12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWApdCNdik 100 Christians detained in China crackdown
* 2018-09 Vatican Christian pope makes deal with China
+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–Holy_See_relations#September_2018_Holy_See–China_Agreement
+
.<<rebel-pepper>> 2018-09 cartoon showing the Pope with a Christian cross containing the Hammer and Sickle communist symbol, in reference to one of the accords that the Vatican struck with the Chinese government. https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/vatican-china-cartoon-09282018102133.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20180930134934im_/https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/vatican-china-cartoon-09282018102133.html/180927RFA-vatican-china.jpg/@@images/190bb54e-d6be-4c98-9599-b4a88aa6b959.jpeg[height=400]
* 2018-01 Chinese authorities demolish Christian mega-church "Golden Lampstand" sparking fears of religious persecution
** https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-mega-church-in-crackdown-2018-1
+
.China's Golden Lampstand Church being demolished. https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-mega-church-in-crackdown-2018-1[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191013080937if_/https://image.businessinsider.com/5a572ca3a75e205e138b4b5f?width=1300&format=jpeg&auto=webp[height=400]
* 2016 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/world/asia/china-zhejiang-christians-pastor-crosses.html pastor 14 years jail
* 2015 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/christians-in-china-feel-full-force-of-authorities-repression/2015/12/23/7dd0ec5a-a736-11e5-b596-113f59ee069a_story.html

.<<rebel-pepper>> 2018-09 cartoon showing Jesus and the Apostles in the Last Supper being arrested by CCP guards. https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/china-crackddown-Christianity-cartoon-09072018150421.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191012075042im_/https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/china-crackddown-Christianity-cartoon-09072018150421.html/180907RFA_thelastsupperinChina_1000.jpg/@@images/ac0553ed-a46d-43f6-98d8-288ce76901af.jpeg[height=400]

.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Hongtu[Zhang Hongtu] cartoon showing <<mao-zedong,Mao Zedong>> and other communist officials at the Last Supper instead of Jesus and the Apostles. http://musicandculture.blogspot.com/2010/03/massive-last-supper-parodies-post.html[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20191107094724if_/http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_W8pwMnZMNuQ/S5YAJmo1Q1I/AAAAAAAAC_A/YKRCKXUiSAM/s1600/meal.jpg[height=400]

[[gay-rights]]
=== Gay rights LGBT权利

Yes, gay people are also <<fear-of-west,discriminated to different degrees in Western countries>>, and even legally prohibited notably in the Islamic world.

But <<intolerance,like all minorities>>, they are generally more fucked in <<dictatorship,dictatorships>>, since they can be easily crushed by majorities.

Therefore, all gay people must be against the CCP:

* 2020-01-07 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/why-china-raising-prospect-same-sex-marriage-n1109471 "Why is China raising the prospect of same-sex marriage?"
* 2018 Weibo temporary homosexual ban:
** 2018-04-16 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/16/china-weibo-bans-homosexual-content-protest "China's Weibo reverses ban on 'homosexual' content after outcry", hashtags `#iamgay` and `#iamgaynotapervert`
** 2018-04-13 https://www.whatsonweibo.com/weibos-new-online-guidelines-no-homosexuality-allowed/
* 2017-07-16 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40610679 "Chinese gay video ban sparks online backlash"
** 2017-06-30 http://www.whatsonweibo.com/new-rules-online-videos-china-no-displays-homosexuality/ "New Rules for Online Videos in China: "No Displays of Homosexuality""
* 2016-03-04 https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/mar/04/china-bans-gay-people-television-clampdown-xi-jinping-censorship "China bans depictions of gay people on television". One of the most prominent series banned was link:++https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addicted_(web_series)++[Addicted (2016, 上瘾)].
+
.Widely distributed still from the Addicted 2016 series which was banned showing a presumably gay couple lying in bed. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/mar/04/china-bans-gay-people-television-clampdown-xi-jinping-censorship[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200315112421if_/https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e46c18a434972d717b3aa03e8ea4ef835d1c1e31/318_0_1809_1086/master/1809.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=f358c97022133c523489fa55dbe7273b[height=400]

See also:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中国同性恋史
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/各地LGBT权利

.Lesbian couple kissing in <<tiananmen,Tiananmen Square>> with Mao's painting and confused/disgusted guards in the background who are likely about to call their superiors to ask what they should do. The photo likely surfaced in 2006 http://web.archive.org/web/20200301224434/https://www.salon.com/2006/01/17/lesbians_china/[as mentioned] in link:++https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(website)++[salon.com] which said it came form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boing_Boing[Boing Boing]. It was not however picked up by any major website. Ciro actually thought this could have been ripped from some television series due to the amazing expression on the guards' faces. TODO: find the original Chinese source, translate the watermarks, and see if their identity is known. http://web.archive.org/web/20200301223317/http://www.chinatoday.com/entertain/tiananmen_kiss.htm[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20200301223317im_/http://www.chinatoday.com/entertain/china.funny.pictures/tiananmen.kiss_1.jpg[height=500]

.<<throne,Qing dynasty>> (18th–19th c.) panel from a scroll showing two men engaging in foreplay, apparently located in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Institute[Kinsey Institute] as of 2005. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Love_play_in_China.jpg[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Love_play_in_China.jpg[height=400]

[[falun-gong]]
=== Falun Gong 法輪大法

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

<<flg-religion,Religion>> created in the 80's by a Chinese dude called <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>.

With the support of the Communist Party to Qigong movements, it reached 70 million believers in 1999, at which point the commies decided they had to be shut down and banned the religion.

Li fled to the USA and lives near New York, where he continues to run the religion as of 2020.

.Tim and Eric's Zone Theory. If you want to stop Falun Gong, don't put them in jail like the dictators. Do it the same way you stop dictators: with <<funny,comedy>>. Otherwise, the dictators remain in power, and next person in jail, will be you.
video::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClvX7ED8UUI[youtube,width=600,height=400]

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwoO7Nekmpw&feature=youtu.be&t=445 Christine Marie, founder of http://voicesfordignity.com/[Voices for Dignity] which takes care of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-Day_Saints[FLDS] leaves, was interviewed in VICE documentary "Polygamist Mafia: Escaping The Kingston Clan". While Ciro does not believe Falun Gong is as extreme as FLDS, he does really like the things Christine says. E.g., she calls "cult leaders" with the neutral <<flg-religion,religious>> form <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>, just like Ciro, and mentions the important fact that "And the another thing that the public doesn't realise, is that there are also beautiful thing within those communities". This is the mindset of <<intolerance,tolerance>> that the world needs.
video::GwoO7Nekmpw[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=445]

==== Falun Gong is not important to be worth discussing

The main reason I emphasise FLG it that is shows how the CCP can mercilessly crush a 70M strong group (according to CCPs own statistics) out of a population of 1.3B in 2000, i.e. 5% of the population.

If that is correct, I'm curious to understand what you consider an important movement? :-)

Anything much larger would take down the government and change China's history forever.

OK, maybe the fact that 69M of those were likely old ladies didn't help much either. Tip to next <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>: make something that appeals to aspiring military officers.

And of course: <<flg-bias>>

Let's try to gather some well sourced footage showing huge numbers of believers on the streets:

* http://www.aparchive.com/search?query=falun%20gong&from=1&orderBy=OldestFirst#7e34a6 AP Archive: could not find a good one there

.Thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in Guangzhou, China, 1998. https://www.theepochtimes.com/finding-the-balance-between-ancient-and-modern_2248694.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200315112422if_/https://img.theepochtimes.com/assets/uploads/2017/05/10/GuangzhouPractice_big-700x420.jpg[height=600]

.Thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in Liaoning Industrial Exhibition, China, likely 1998. https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2016/5/21/157091.html[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20191108081906im_/http://falunau.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/1a1744bca5595d8dc0c0aa3ca1280f04.jpg[height=600]

.Hundreds of Falun Gong believers in Chengdu, China, 1998. https://faluninfo.net/falun-gong-the-practice/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200315112422if_/https://faluninfo.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/chengdu.jpg[height=500]

==== Do you believe in or practice Falun Gong?

No, I'm agnostic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Here are some things that I don't like about Falun Gong for example: <<things-i-personally-dislike-about-flg>>.

I think that FLG exercises and meditation are good for you, just like many other meditative practices such as Yoga, Buddhist meditation, Tai chi, deep Catholic prayer, etc.

However I find the metaphysics and obligations boring like for any other prophetic xref:flg-religion[religion].

The absolute truth is already known by the xref:li-hongzhi[prophet], although he does not want to give clear evidence for reasons.

Or a Jesus put it in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4&version=NIV[Luke 4]:

____
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

“'He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
____

Ah good old prophets, their tricks haven't changed a bit in 2 thousand years!

And you just repeat these truth over and over and over:

* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Aliens]
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-organized[You can support FLG by doing X and Y, why wouldn't you since you are saving other people?]
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Alternate dimensions]
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-medication[Maybe FLG will make you healthier, but no promises, but it will make you a better person, and that's why you should do it, but if you really really believe, you get healthier]
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* Non-followers are like this, FLG people are like that. Although non-followers who do good things are actually doing FLG without knowing it. Note: FLG even has a specific terminology for non-believers, which is translated in English as https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_new_4.html["ordinary-people"]. Like other aspects of FLG however, this appears in other religions, e.g. my mother mentioned the funny term used by her Protestant's group term but I forgot it, and you can see it in Harry Potter as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggle[The Muggles].
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Final judgement]
* FLG is good
* <<is-chinese-politician-x-evil,the CCP is evil>>, not figuratively, but literally as in they are representatives of, or evil supernatural beings themselves. E.g. <<jiang-zemin>> is actually an evil frog, literally, not just memecally. The Chinese Government is literally responsible for creating <<corona,Covid-19>>. They give the CCP too much credit. The CCP are just a bunch of lazy and greedy people like you and me.

I would really like to know if <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> really believes in FLG, or is just a complete manipulating charlatan, but unfortunately we will never know that.

Just imagine if before he died he published a video saying: "it was a joke, gotcha!". Now that would be **epic**!

Since I'm good natured, it's hard for me to believe that he doesn't believe in anything, how can anyone be that evil? Maybe he believes in part of it, but made up some stuff to sell it better, maybe with good intentions that selling the fake part would also lead more people to see the good part?

Like any other prophetic religion, FLG gives tiny evidence that you can directly feel through meditation. The energies, which I believe are real feelings. And then using that entry point asks you to believe a whole lot more, that you can't feel.

This becomes especially strong when a critical mass of believers is reached, and then they start interpreting all sorts of events as miracles, and you start to believe other believers without questioning them, and a circle is formed.

This post by a former believer gives what I feel is a realistic account that matches my observations: https://medium.com/@Ben_D_Hurley/-10677166298b "Me and Li" by Ben Hurley published on October 23, 2017.

And yet, all those who love freedom, must oppose FLG ban, or be themselves enslaved by tyrants themselves: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

In any case, at least FLG got one thing right: the commies are <<is-the-chinese-government-is-evil,evil>>, and we have to get rid of them.

See also: <<flg-fake>>.

[[flg-bias]]
==== Do you support FLG just because your wife and mother-in-law do it?

Not consciously, I think I would likely support them even if I didn't have family ties to FLG.

Likely I wouldn't have started this campaign if I didn't know them of course.

But of course, this is impossible to answer objectively.

But don't you think that <<falun-gong-is-not-important-to-be-worth-discussing,**70 Million** people (6% of the total population in 2000!)>> getting completely squashed by the Party illustrates extremely well the dangers of the dictatorship?

With that in mind, I try my best to give FLG only the right level of exposure I think it deserves relative to other events, according to these guidelines: <<keyword-choice>>

If more recent events of mass human rights violation happen, especially affecting in the order of tens of million people, I will probably rank higher than Falun Gong, this was the case for <<xinjiang,Xinjiang in 2019>> for example, even though it only affected a measly million.

==== How much do you know about Falun Gong's claims?

I haven't read their <<flg-canon,canon>> myself, no patience, but I have constant contact with believers and so have an idea of its content.

[[flg-canon]]
==== What are the canonical Falun Gong texts?

It appears that Falun Gong cannon is present at: http://falundafa.org/

It contains <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>'s approved texts / speech transcriptions, which are sacred.

The only sacred version is Chinese which is a sacred language, and of which there is only one perfect revision. Islam also appears to place great importance on the sacredness of Arabic in which Mohamed first spoke, perhaps even more: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/plight-uyghurs-why-muslims-wont-speak-their-brethren-112466 Protestants and later the Catholic church, have moved away from such really bad strategy however, the accessibility of Christianity is seen on the entrance of many many churches which have a sign "ALL are welcome". Well played.

I think <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> claims the specifically chose to reincarnate in China this time.

The English translation is made by followers, and gets new revisions to reduce translation imperfection.

However, the Chinese language seems to be fundamentally sacred, and there might never be an sacred English version approved by LHZ.

LHZ is of course a de-facto God with superpowers, and can of course speak all languages, but for reasons he didn't just write an English translation himself.

This is a reasonable command to download the English cannon for grepping:

....
wget -r -l inf --no-remove-listing --no-clobber --no-parent -w 2 https://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-books.html
....

TODO: need to find a way to wrap lines, otherwise grep might fail on sentences.

Nothing else is canonical. LHZ seems to have said that there are enlightened followers, but has not specified who, so we can't derive canon from anyone else.

Notably, <<flg-organized,FLG media>> such as http://www.minghui.org/ is believer led and thus not canonical, even though believers have very high confidence on it, and LHZ <<flg-organized,directly supports it>>.

==== Do you support FLG, or just use it because it is a censored?

I don't support FLG specifically, only freedom of religion.

I use it in my usernames simply because it is the most banned and censored one in China today.

I believe that <<thoughtcrime,individuals should only be put in jail for what they do, not for what they believe>>.

I consider FLG <<flg-religion,a religion like any other>>, and I am against its ban, as I am for all other religions.

Also I believe that freedom of speech and democracy imply that FLG and other religions will exist. If you want freedom, you have to <<intolerance,accept other people's choices>>.

Otherwise, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy and communism can also be considered as religions>>, and banned.

See also: <<flg-verifiable>>.

[[flg-daily]]
==== How is it like to live with Falun Gong believers?

This will obviously vary from believer to believer, but here my experience.

Like any other religion that is taken seriously, they spend several hours per week doing their standard religious activities: <<flg-religion>>.

I have never seen them, or anyone we know from FLG say or do something that I consider morally incorrect because of FLG.

This does not prevent <<wife,my wife>> from working normally.

My mother-in-law, who is retired, dedicates all her time to Falun Gong when she is not taking care of the house.

My mother is also religious (link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism[Protestant]), and I get a very similar feeling about both groups.

Like other religions, Falun Gong gives them meaning in life, and I admire that they pursue their belief energetically.

I much prefer that my mother-in-law does Falun Gong, which is a noble meaningful goal, rather than watch stupid crap on television.

Also, although I am <<do-you-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>, I also live in a similar way.

My religion is that of science and technology, and I pursue it fervently by trying to learn and teach it and spend several hours a week doing that, even when it does not give me money immediately.

If I pursue my meaning, why should I prevent anyone from pursuing theirs?

Previously, my wife and mother-in-law would sometimes try to persuade me to learn FLG, which was annoying.

But every time I told them very clearly that I know where to download the books if I want to, and that I may never want to read them, and that my wife must either accept this fact of leave me.

And they have accepted that: they think I'm a good person, and they can accept that you can also be a good person even without doing FLG.

I do feel Falun Gong makes my mother-in-law more reluctant to use or actively search for <<flg-medication,medication or treatment>>. But I think it is also linked to the fact that she didn't have a very good education or a good health system around. However, if we give her something, she will take it. My wife does not have any resistance to medication.

One thing that does worry me is that my mother in law sleeps too little every night, doing one of the Falun Gong meditations late in the evening, and then waking up very early to a long series of reading and exercise sessions.

Bibliography:

* http://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795 (https://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795[archive])家里有人练法轮功是一种怎样的体验？

==== In the Tweet about his mother in law, Ciro Santilli says "correctional facility", but reeducation through labour has been abolished

He was not very precise https://twitter.com/cirosantilli/status/579270450984984576[here], the precise term is "jail". He was _not_ talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor Unfortunately it is not possible to edit a Tweet.

[[flg-changed]]
==== Falun Gong is completely different in the West than it was in China

I believe that it has changed.

But isn't that the case of every cultural religious movement that migrates to a completely new culture?

Main points which may have changed:

* It has become more organized.
+
But why shouldn't they organize to defend themselves now that they have the chance without being put into prison?
+
The CCP is highly organized and has way more resources.
* Less emphasis is given to the religious / mystical aspect, and more to the corporal exercises, and health aspect.
+
This may be because people in the "West" are:
+
** are "scientific-educated" atheists who wouldn't go for a "religion"
** already have other religions, which would view FLG as a taboo

Also maybe only the richest and most educated believers managed to escape China, and thus the movement carried that bias outside China.

If you know more ways in which it may have changed, let me know.

But once again, we can know nothing for sure about the past in China because of censorship.

Even if you saw something yourself, how can you be sure that it is representative?

And if it has changed, now that it has changed, maybe China should unban it?

==== FLG has been funded by the US government at least once, therefore it is evil

1.5M USD in 2010 for a FLG controlled internet freedom group http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8678760.stm

But well, if you are going to do something anyways, and someone offers you money, why wouldn't you take it?

Taking the money does of course give a "bad impression" that someone is trying to buy influence, but does it in itself imply that you are doing something bad?

But do you really think that the US government paid that to buy influence in FLG? What would they force upon that FLG group that they didn't already want to do? Isn't it more likely that the US government wanted them to continue doing exactly what they were doing?

Every government funds groups it supports, it is an all out war I suppose. Compare that to the propaganda funds of the CCP.

What about the funding of political campaigns, which vastly outnumbers 1.5M USD every year?

[[follow-the-law]]
==== FLG is illegal in China, we must follow the law

This might be a bad law that should be changed.

It was perfectly legal for <<nazi,Nazis>> to kill Jews. Does it make that right?

[[flg-fake]]
==== FLG is fake 法轮功是假的

The same can be argued about any other religion or political belief of type: it is better if we organize society in this or that way.

How can you disprove their belief, when as in any other religion, every affirmation made hinges on "miracles only happen around when true believers are around" or "only true believers can perceive evidence in their hearts / minds directly". He died of cancer? Not a true believer.

Conversely, do you understand the full sequence of experiments that imply quantum field theory? Have you seen videos of those experiments? Have you attended live demonstrations? Do you understand the construction of the experimentation apparatus? Yet, why do you believe it?

More importantly: what do you propose that should be done about it? Should we kill followers? Or is jail enough?

Also do let me know when you have achieved irrefutable proof that democracy / freedom of speech are the optimal ways to organize the government: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

See also: <<flg-religion>>

[[flg-verifiable]]
===== FLG never makes any predictions that can be reasonably verified by non-believers

Exactly, just like any other <<flg-religion>>, this is why I'm <<do-you-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>.

The closest claims to observable I've heard are:

* when pictures are taken in sacred events, notably Shen Yun, sometimes you can see magic Falun energy wheels in the pictures
* in the homes of some followers, small magic good plants-like fungi-like things have grown
+
.Image of the magic good small plants that grew on a believer's home. They took a photo and it published on <<falun-gong-media,Minghui>> as a 2018 Chinese New Year good wish page to <<li-hongzhi>>. If any biologist reads this, for the love of God send me a Wikipedia page with the possible species. TODO transcribe the Chinese. http://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2018/2/17/168396p.html[Source].
image::http://web.archive.org/web/20200312085051im_/http://en.minghui.org/u/article_images/e9c2b07e224d28984998a094deb53f85.jpg[height=400]
* the sacred books of some believers had a closed lotus flower when they were bought, and after several years, the flower opened

but I suspect they are not even <<flg-canon,canon>>, just believer oral culture.

Of course, like every other religion, reality happens to be is constructed in a way that prevents non-believers to verify anything with their eyes in a reproducible way.

[[flg-cult]]
===== FLG is a very new religion and therefore fake

The Romans called <<christianity>> the "Cult of Jesus".

If I tell a lie today, will it become true in a thousand years? Or a truth today become a lie?

Try sending an email to <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> asking him to <<flg-verifiable,prove his powers to you>> :-)

[[against-censorship-and-flg]]
==== Many people both are against censorship and FLG

Ciro know that, and that supporting FLG is "bad" for his public image with most Chinese, including those that are against censorship.

But without censorship, there will be democracy, and with democracy FLG followers will have voting rights, and FLG will become legal.

Ciro thinks that the situation is very similar to <<flg-religion,Scientology>> in the USA today: most people dislike it, but believe that you can believe whatever you want.

Democracy and Communism <<democracy-is-a-religion,can also be considered as religions and persecuted>>.

Isn't it convenient when a dictatorship gets rid of those weirdos for you? But not so much when suddenly you or your family is the weirdo...

If you are not ready to accept the beliefs of others, dictatorship is the only choice for you.

It is also interesting to note how Falun Gong is a good source of <<censorship-circumvention>> material.

See also: <<flg-bias>>

[[democracy-is-a-religion]]
===== Why do you say that democracy is a religion just like FLG?

Because it also specifies irrational and fundamental aspects of how one should live, notably voting and freedom of speech.

Like the Cult of CCP has one fundamental belief: <<stability,the Party is always right>>.

Ban FLG, and you have banned democracy.

Accept democracy, and you will have FLG.

[[flg-stability]]
===== Falun Gong had to be banned because it was a threat to the stability of the country

Then they link to the Taping Rebellion:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

Of course FLG it was a threat to the stability of the country.

It is, as <<ciro-santilli>> has said, a highly organized political power: <<flg-political>>.

However, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy>> is a threat to the stability country in the exact same way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

Anything that goes against a dictatorship is a threat to the stability of the country.

Now read: <<stability>>

==== Many people say they do FLG only to get VISAs to the USA

Heard this a few times, and I believe it has happened.

But I don't see how this is relevant at all to this discussion:

* if they are not really FLG believers, they should be prosecuted, but this says nothing about the real FLG believers,
* if they are, then why wouldn't they seek a VISA, since they are in constant threat of going to jail or worse in China, and the USA law gives them that right?

Sample news:

* https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/09/28/652218318/thousands-could-be-deported-as-government-targets-asylum-mills-clients

[[flg-witness]]
==== I have personally seen people do bad things because of Falun Gong

Either direct suicide or <<flg-medication,dying because of not taking medication>>.

First, I'm not saying I don't believe you, and I'm sorry about what happened.

But your testimony is worthless unless you give the following:

* clear unique personal identification
+
This is because the CCP has thousands of <<wumao,wumaos>> who could make fake reports.
+
There are basically two ways to do that:
+
.  your testimony is done in video form on YouTube clearly showing your face as you make it
.  links between a notable social media presence that is hard to achieve, e.g. Twitter with many followers, Stack overflow with a lot of rep, and the account
+
Either of those must contain / link to information that uniquely identifies you. Generally, full name, city and date of birth is enough.
* a precise testimony that states exactly what you saw happen with your own eyes, or heard from people that are very close to you.
+
The testimony must include:
+
--
** when the events happened
** where they happened, in which city at the very least
** the full names of who did what
--
+
This is to:
+
** make it easier to verify the truth of the event
** uniquely identify the event so we don't count a single event multiple times

If you do provide all of the above, I add your report to a list of reports that I will maintain. This list does not exist yet because there were no valid reports yet.

Next consider this:

* are you sure that Falun Gong made the person do the bad thing, and that the person wouldn't have done it anyways?
+
Did someone from Falun Gong told the person to do it?
+
I bet that if you look into patients of psychiatrists, you will find more suicides than average. So should we ban psychiatry?
* are you sure that the order came from <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>, and that it was not just some disgruntled local leader using Falun Gong for his personal madness and doing things he did not approve?
+
Branch Davidians were inspired by <<christianity>>. So should we ban Christianity? What about the majority of Christians who have never done anything bad?
* only statistics has any meaning, and it would require a very large number of reports to make up statistics, so you will likely be wasting your time. I will do my part and maintain a list however.
* if ask for FLG believers to compile a list of horrors they have suffered, which they have already been doing since the start of the persecution, I bet that their list will be much longer than yours, because they are so <<flg-organized,well organized>>

[[flg-persecution]]
==== FLG does not have proof of their persecution claims

How much proof do you think they would be able to get when there is no freedom of press?

Do you think that forbidding a <<falun-gong-is-not-important-to-be-worth-discussing,70 million>> person religion could have gone smoothly?

Do you think the thousands of personal of accounts of human rights violations that exist are all fake, and don't indicate that many, many more have taken place but fallen under censorship?

Conversely, there is no reliable proof that FLG is bad as claimed by CCP that has been verified by international media.

[[thoughtcrime]]
==== Someone from movement X did something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

By this logic, everyone should go to jail. The law should only punish individuals.

The communist party, which has had continuous power since 1949, killed millions during the <<cultural-revolution>>. Surely they must be banned, no?

But the CCP has changed so much since those days, I hear you say.

I agree. And <<flg-changed,so has FLG>>.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime[thoughtcrime] from <<nineteen-eighty-four>>.

===== Movement X tells people to do something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

E.g. kill.

Yes, convincing someone to do something bad is as bad as doing it yourself of course, and must be forbidden.

Now proceed to prove that FLG made and will continue making people do bad things, going through:

* <<flg-witness>>
* <<flg-changed>>

[[flg-political]]
==== People from movement X are only in it for political power

For every desire of the masses, there will be amoral representatives that will step to use that power.

Still, those representatives cannot gain power if there is no backing desire from the society.

The only advantage of <<richer,democracy>>, is that those representatives have to pretend harder to do things for that group to retain their power.

[[flg-trump]]
===== FLG supports Donald Trump 法轮功支持特朗普

<<ciro-santilli>> believes he has heard praises to Trump directly in <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>'s speeches, but could not find a source.

Also, the <<flg-organized,Epoch Times Falun Gong controlled newspaper>> has donated: $1.5 million https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/trump-qanon-impending-judgment-day-behind-facebook-fueled-rise-epoch-n1044121

But of course, so long as those respect the laws of the country, they are free to do it and must not be interfered. As if other major American media didn't have political agendas.

It is therefore extremely likely that 99.999% of Falun Gong believers also support Trump.

This is exactly the same, in fact, as <<flg-religion,Christian groups>> which always gather behind "the right".

In the case of the Falun Gong however, Trump has been vocal about China's threat, and therefore is a much needed ally of the movement.

Trump's immigration policies have turned Asian Americans towards the democrat opposition however as of 2019: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/13/18308137/asian-american-voters-immigration-democrats-donald-trump

One saving point of the republicans for Asians is the opposition to university quotas instance, which many Asians feel blocks their high performing kids from top schools for less deserving Black students. This also plays into possible cross Asian-Black racism tensions.

==== Western media has exaggerated reports on FLG for propaganda reasons

Possibly true, but which reports are you talking about specifically?

All that I care about is:

* it is censored today
* if you do it you go to jail
* there were tens of millions of followers at the time of the ban

which I think are undeniable.

The only question that matters is: should it be banned or not?

==== Do you believe in the allegations of human rights violations done to Falun Gong believers?

Let's just focus on the evidence:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CedVnJOgwg4&feature=youtu.be "Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps" by "FOX 11 Los Angeles" published May 21, 2019. Names mentioned: Fuquan Yin,

===== Do you believe in the allegations of organ harvesting made by Falun Gong believers?

In short: I believe that it has happened to many people.

Long version:

It is obviously very hard to prove and quantify it definitely, much like it was hard to prove the Holocaust: bodies were cremated, and bribes were paid.

Even if we had a video showing the whole process, showing the whole money flow from donor to prison guard, it would still be hard to quantify it, so I do have some room for doubt in this opinion.