README.adoc

* the metaphysics, most notably, Li Hongzhi is a living God, and all other non verifiable things he claims like aliens, alternate dimensions, etc., see:
** <<flg-religion>>
** <<flg-verifiable>>

Ciro thinks that FLG's self-help part could potentially be good for you, just like many other meditative practices such as Yoga, Buddhist meditation, Tai chi, deep Catholic prayer, etc. As far as he has heard, all of it sounded good standard religious self-help: be peaceful, be good to others, etc. Like any other well managed religion, FLG does have good things to offer, see also: <<christine-marie>>.

However Ciro believes that the metaphysics is all complete and utter bullshit, child stories made up by Li Hongzhi, and just as real as Father Christmas or the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster[Flying Spaghetti Monster].

Also the "obligation to reach Salvation" is boring like for many other prophetic <<flg-religion,religion>>.

From a purely strategic point of view, the metaphysics is a trade-off:

* some people will believe you are a freaking living God
* others will laugh at you and say you are a charlatan

It may be argued however that Li played this card beautifully: since all Chinese power is concentrated in the CCP, any non-CCP movement dies out, so he was better off long run playing the metaphysics game. The only other choice would have been joining the CCP.

To Ciro it is obvious that Falun Gong is just one of the many very similar movements that came out of the Qi Gong Boom, such as: <<zhong-gong>>. It just happens to be the one that survived due to better luck and strategy.

The absolute truth is already known by the <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>, although he does not want to give clear evidence for reasons: <<flg-verifiable>>, and Ciro finds that utterly boring. There's no fun in living in a world where the absolute truth has been found.

For these reasons, Ciro cannot bother to read even into the self-help part: how can you read that when there is so much bullshit every other page?

Ciro would really like to know if <<li-hongzhi>> really believes in FLG himself, or is just a complete manipulating charlatan, but unfortunately we will never know that. Just imagine if before he died he published a video saying: "it was a joke, gotcha!". Now that would be **epic**!

Since Ciro is good-natured, it's hard for him to believe that he doesn't believe in anything, how can anyone be that evil? Maybe he believes in part of it, but made up some stuff to sell it better, maybe with good intentions that selling the fake part would also lead more people to see the good part?

Like any other prophetic religion, FLG gives tiny evidence that you can directly feel through meditation. The energies, which Ciro believe are real feelings. And then using that entry point asks you to believe a whole lot more, that you can't feel: <<flg-verifiable>>.

This becomes especially strong when a critical mass of believers is reached, and then they start interpreting all sorts of events as miracles, and you start to believe other believers without questioning them, and a circle is formed.

This post by a former believer gives what Ciro feels is a realistic account that matches Ciro's observations: <<me-and-li-by-ben-hurley-2017>>.

And yet, all those who love freedom, must oppose FLG ban, or be themselves enslaved by tyrants themselves: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

In any case, at least FLG got one thing right: the commies are <<ccp-evil,evil>>, and we have to get rid of them.

See also: <<flg-fake>>.

[[how-much-does-ciro-santilli-know-about-falun-gong]]
==== How much does Ciro Santilli know about Falun Gong? (三西猴对法轮功有多熟悉？)

He hasn't read their <<flg-canon,canon>> himself, no patience, but he has had <<flg-bias,constant contact with believers>> and so has an idea of its content.

Ciro has summarized his thoughts about <<falun-gong>> at: <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong>> and <<flg-religion>>

[[flg-religion]]
=== Is Falun Gong a religion? 法轮功是一个宗教吗？

If asked if they follow a religion, most FLG believers will say "no", and <<li-hongzhi>> explicitly says that in <<flg-canon>>, e.g. https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/jjyz52.htm[]:

____
Falun Dafa is not a religion, but future generations will regard it as one.
____

E.g. they call themselves "practitioners" or "students" (学员) or "disciples of the Great Law" (大法弟子, or mare accurately, of <<li-hongzhi>>'s Law) instead of "believers", and their peers "practitioner colleagues" (https://baike.baidu.com/item/同修[同修]). Non believers call them derogatorily "轮子"("little wheels"), or in friendly terms "轮友" (wheel friend).

And if you say you don't believe in their FLG metaphysics bullshit, they will often reply "he does not understand".

To them, it is not about belief, the truth is clear, and you just don't see it yet.

To this you should reply: "and you don't understand that <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>> is a master manipulator dude who deceived you and millions of others".

But <<ciro-santilli>> strongly believes that this is just a language barrier/FLG propaganda question (see also <<different-levels-of-truth>>), and that 99.9999% of people in the West would classify FLG as a religion just like <<christianity>> if they are told about FLG's beliefs:

* absolute truth comes from an enlightened <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>, who is perfect and has superhuman abilities
* weekly in-person meetings (学法 "study the Fa", or more verbosely "study the law (of the universe (of <<li-hongzhi>>))"）or daily online meetings where they read from a <<flg-canon,sacred book>>, either written by the prophet, or transcribed from his presentations to disciples, including the disciples questions, much like traditional Chinese texts like <<analects>>, just like Christians read from the Bible over and over again.
+
In both cases, some believers claim that sometimes even reading the same text again gives them new insight.
* prescribed daily meditation exercise hours, somewhat like Muslim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah[Salah] prayers which they call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazhengnian[发正念 (fa1 zheng4 nian4)], which means "send righteous thoughts". They seem to believe that this meditation helps external good magic things happen, so it is half meditation half prayer.
* longer "less mandatory" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong[Qigong-like] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/气功[气功]) exercises (lian4 gong1, 练功) followed by a meditation (打坐) and which they collectively call https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/修道_(道教)[修炼] "practice austerities". note that this term is borrowed from Taoism but possibly with different precise meaning. There are exactly 5 exercises (meditation being the fifth) some with a fun supernatural name, on <<flg-canon>> https://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/flg_2006_4.htm[] "The Falun Gong Practice System":
** Buddha Stretching a Thousand Arms
** Falun Standing Stance
** Penetrating the Cosmic Extremes
** Falun Cosmic Orbit
* higher intelligent beings
* some believers who practice really well can also get some "supernatural powers" (功能), but not everyone develops them (luckily only so many people are that manipulable!), and you are <<flg-verifiable,not allowed to show your poweres to "ordinary people">> of course, from <<flg-canon>> https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_34.htm[]:
+
[[flg-supernatural-powers]]
____
What will one develop in the course of his cultivation? He will develop supernatural powers which are called supernormal capabilities for short.

Do you want to use them among ordinary people? You are absolutely not allowed to use them among ordinary people at will.
____
+
See also "You don't get the promised goodies" from <<orange-papers>>
** other dimensions, which some select people with vision superpowers can see, this being one of the supernatural powers that may be developed, the "Celestial Eye" https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_21.htm[]:
+
[[flg-cross-dimensional-vision]]
____
A cultivator of a particular attainment level can only see the scenes on that level. He cannot see or believe the truth beyond that level. Therefore, he only believes what he has seen on his own level. When he has not gone up to such a high level of cultivation, he would think those things do not exist and are incredible.
____
+
and the "Supernormal Capability of Remote Sight" is a closely related ability: https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_22.htm:
+
____
A supernormal capability directly connected with the Celestial Eye is called the Remote Sight. Someone says that he can see scenes in Beijing, in America or scenes on the other side of the earth while sitting here.
____
+
And finally there is also the past-future vision ability "Supernormal Capability of Total Recall" https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_23.htm[]:
+
____
 There is another supernormal capability which has a direct relation with the Celestial Eye. It is called Total Recall. Now there are six supernormal capabilities which are generally recognized in the world. They include the Celestial Eye, Remote Sight, and Total Recall. What is Total Recall? It is a supernormal capability with which one can know a person's future and past; if the ability is great, one can know the rise and decline of a society; if the ability is even greater, one can see the Law of the change of the whole celestial body.
____
* aliens that look like humans are amongst us, they gave us part of our modern technology, some are evil, others not so evil. E.g. https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/19980530L.html[]:
+
____
Science, however, is not something gods imparted to humans. Instead, it was passed down to humans by alien beings inside the Three Realms, and for the purpose of controlling humankind. People's belief in it has surpassed everything. But I tell you that precisely because of its shallowness, this science has caused the degeneration of morality in human society.
____
+
Despite this however, Falun Gong benefits from information technology enormously. For example, many (most?) believers use the Internet daily to study the Fa, and to organize their <<falun-gong-media,media outlets>>.
* meetings in which people tell their religious testimonies ("experience sharing" TODO Chinese name, possibly just "分享修炼的美好", e.g. https://www.minghui.org/mh/articles/2015/9/29/分享修炼的美好-印尼召开修炼心得交流会（图）-316838.html[source]): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony#Religion
+
As Jesus put it in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018%3A20&version=NIV[Matthew 18:20]:
+
____
For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them
____
+
which highlights the critical believer mass effect of reinforced beliefs.
* an impending link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment[final judgment]-like event, which will happen "very soon" (<<flg-verifiable,unspecified date>>), and in which the just will be rewarded
+
Ciro predict that when <<li-hongzhi>> dies, the claim will be that he went to another dimension so save us all, therefore putting this final judgment on hold, a bit like Jesus.
* non-believers are fundamentally different from believers. Although non-followers who do good things are actually doing FLG without knowing it.
+
FLG has a specific terminology for non-believers, which is translated in English as https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_new_4.html["ordinary people"] (常人), as opposed to Falun Gong Believers, which Li calls Falun Gong disciples (大法弟子).
+
Non-FLG people should therefore logically call Falun Gong believers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_psychology[abnormal people] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/異常心理學[异常人]) in return, much like Ciro likes to call the Chinese who call him 老外 as "老内".
+
Like other aspects of FLG however, this appears in other religions, e.g. my mother mentioned the funny term used by her Protestant's group term but Ciro forgot it, and you can see it in Harry Potter as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggle[The Muggles].
* xref:flg-organized[You can support FLG by doing X and Y, it is not mandatory, but why wouldn't you since you are saving other people?]. Explaining that Falun Gong is good contrary to CCP propaganda also known as "Fa-rectification" in the English translation jargon.
* alternate dimensions
* pre-civilization: civilization is actually much older than what we believe, and was super advanced, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse[societal collapse] events led us to forget about it, a bit like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis[atlantis].
+
Notably, this also implies that the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution[theory of evolution] is wrong, since there existed modern humans hundred of millions of years ago (the current scientific estimates for anatomically modern humans is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_human[500,000 years]): https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_14.htm
+
____
Archaeologists have found in the world a kind of organism called "three-leaves insect", which came into being between 600 million and 260 million years ago, and became extinct thereafter. An American scientist found a fossil of "three-leaves insect", on which there was also a human footprint, left by a shoe he was wearing, and clearly printed on the fossil. Aren't they joking with the historians? How could there possibly have been human beings 260 million years ago according to Darwin's theory of evolution?
____
* xref:flg-medication[Maybe FLG will make you healthier, but no promises, but it will make you a better person, and that's why you should do it, but if you really really believe, you get healthier]. But people who seemed to be believers also die, because deep within their hearts, there was a belief problem.
* <<falun-gong-believes-that-the-ccp-is-literally-a-manifestation-of-real-devils>>

From this, it is obvious that Falun Gong is just a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Age[New Age] (link:https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/新纪元运动[新纪元运动]) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism[syncretic] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/綜攝[综摄]) religion combining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong[Qigong], https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism[Buddhism], some aspects of <<christianity>>, and whatever other crazy things <<li-hongzhi>> believes in.

Or you could call Falun Gong a <<flg-cult,cult>>, which is nothing but a new/small religion with negative connotation, and thus meaningless.

FLG is very similar to Scientology in Ciro's view: a new religion that mixes elements of both old and new. And just like any other religion, <<democracy-is-a-religion,their practice must be allowed>>.

But consider this: how to classify what a religion is?

Some would answer: science is what every one can perceive with their own senses.

But FLG followers claim to feel FLG energies when doing the exercises, and a few of them have the power of seeing the other dimensions.

On the other hand, how many of your friends have experienced the laws of quantum field theory or general relativity in a very direct way?

And aren't pro-democracy believers also taking actions based solely on a shared belief, possibly organized by a pro-democracy leader?

From a purely strategic point of view, the "religion" denomination would be:

* good to FLG because the concept of freedom of religion carries considerable weight in the West
* bad for FLG because people who already have a religion would be less likely to try it out and start believing
+
Falun Gong's recruitment strategy is to focus on the exercises first, and in particular its <<flg-medication,health benefits>> and then as some people start to feel things, they start introducing the metaphysics.

See also:

* <<different-levels-of-truth>>
* <<flg-daily>>

[[falun-gong-believes-that-the-ccp-is-literally-a-manifestation-of-real-devils]]
==== Falun Gong believes that the CCP is literally a manifestation of real devils (法轮功认为中共是真正恶魔的化身)

Unlike <<ciro-santilli>> which does <<is-chinese-politician-x-evil,not think most CCP politicians are actually evil>>, Falun Gong seems to believe that they literally as in they are representatives of, or evil supernatural beings themselves.

E.g. <<jiang-zemin>> is actually an evil frog in some alternate dimension, literally, not just memecally.

And those devils they are literally responsible for example for creating <<covid,Covid-19>>, which is itself a magic force which tests the evil and good: <<falun-gongs-view-of-epidemics>>.

And <<flg-trump,Trump>> likely represents a magical anti-devil force of the universe.

Some of the most direct <<flg-canon,canon>> suggestions we could find: https://en.falundafa.org/eng/HongYin5.htm[]:

____
The Red Devil uses lies and money to meddle with man
____

https://en.falundafa.org/eng/articles/20060209A.html[]:

____
All along, lowlife secret agents of the wicked CCP have been constantly gathering so-called "Falun Gong intelligence."
____

Falun Gong gives the CCP too much credit. The CCP are just a bunch of lazy and greedy people like you and me.

[[falun-gong-preaching]]
==== Falun Gong preaching (法轮功传教)

link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-air_preaching[Street preaching] is an important aspect of Falun Gong, using stands and leaflets on the streets much like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses[Jehovah's Witnesses].

Jargon:

* http://www.minghui.org/mh/glossary.html[讲真相]: "truth-telling"
* hongfa (TODO characters?)

The Falun Gong organization also specifies guidelines on how to preach, although these might not be <<flg-canon,canon>>, even though if they are not, it is extremely likely that <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> is directly involved in their specification

Falun Gong has also used <<flg-telemarketing,phone call preaching>>.

All of this is part of their effort to "save people (救人)", i.e. convert them to Falun Gong.

<<li-hongzhi>> personally heavily emphasises the importance of preaching in <<flg-canon>>.

.Falun Gong believers preaching on the street in London in 2016. This image taken from a believer website shows a typical local regular gathering of believers on weekends, or even week days if there are enough retired believers in the group. They will put on their exercise music, and do exercises to attract more followers. Someone will also stand on their stall giving out propaganda flyers, or asking people to sign petitions for Western governments to support Falun Gong, e.g. opposing their alleged <<flg-organ-harvesting,organ harvesting>>. In the case of touristic areas with Chinese people walking around, they will also ask the Chinese tourists to <<tuidang,quit the their CCP membership, possibly using a fake name>>. <<ciro-santilli>> has to say: it is very amusing to see those Chinese people trying to pretend to ignore the censored religion, when some of them are clearly curious about it, especially the younger ones who didn't see it live. Some just get mad, and say how the CCP is so great to them. https://truthinchina.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/london-uk-practitioners-explain-the-facts-about-falun-gong-in-st-martins-place-photos/[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Falun_Gong_street_preaching_2016_London.jpg[height=400]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=315&v=nD6792YoOmY from <<nigel-ng,Mikey Chen>> shows a parade/preaching event in San Francisco.

[[flg-telemarketing]]
===== Some Falun Gong people make phone telemarketing (一些法轮功人搞电话推销)

Ciro Santilli has seen Falun Gong people making phone calls to people in China with to explain why FLG is with his own eyes, and therefore is sure it has happened on some scale.

Particularly during <<covid>>, Falun Gong ramped up the telemarketing calls and some voluntary believers were making calls all day nonstop.

Ciro does not know how the called numbers were obtained and if callees voluntarily signed up for it, but that feels extremely unlikely.

Interestingly however, many of the callees seemed interesting in what they had to say, and they often had long chats, Ciro was surprised by that. Maybe they were just bored senseless due to the Corona lockdown. Or maybe <<most-chinese-people-like-their-dictatorship,many Chinese People actually don't like their Government>> and the CCP is fucked.

Also, of course, the callers received call scripts and guidelines to makes those calls, because obviously <<flg-organized>>.

Ciro strongly disapproves of this, Just like for any product, visual ads on the street are impossible to prevent, but any kind of advertising that generates notifications on feeds, or takes people's time, is unacceptable.

As you can easily find on <<google>>/<<baidu>>, such calls may be reported in the <<cac-report-website>>.

Ciro has not however seen them talking about making automated phone calls.

https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1940394/how-rampant-phone-scams-highlight-chinas-need-tighter also mentions that Falun Gong makes telemarketing in passing without any reference.

[[flg-cult]]
==== Is Falun Gong a cult? (法轮功是邪教吗？)

Does <<ciro-santilli>> think Falun Gong a cult? Yes.

Is the CCP a cult? Yes: <<ccp-cult>>.

Is <<christianity>> a cult? Yes.

Is democracy a cult? Yes: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

Is modern science a cult? Maybe.

Therefore, the only question that matters for all the above is the same: are they good or bad cults?

Falun Gong clearly share many many many characteristics with what many people classify as a "cult", see e.g.: <<orange-papers>>.

However, <<ciro-santilli>> strongly believes that so does any other existing religion e.g. Christianity, and that Falun Gong is not any worse or better than those other well known religions.

Ciro therefore believes that the only reasonable stances are to either:

* be against all religions (including Christianity and Falun Gong), and classify all of them as Cults
* allow both Christianity and Falun Gong to exist, and support religious freedom

but not "oppose Falun Gong" and support Christianity.

Some people will say: Falun Gong is a cult because it is too new and therefore obviously fake!

So, if I tell a lie today, will it become true in a thousand years? Or a truth today become a lie? The Romans called <<christianity>> the "Cult of Jesus"!

Try sending an email to <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> asking him to <<flg-verifiable,prove his powers to you>> :-)

Others will say: Falun Gong is a cult because its prophet is still alive!

But then, worry not, because Li Hongzhi was born in 1951, and therefore will almost certainly die by 2040, unless he truly is a living God as he claims.

Now, for the really important question of weather Falun Gong is a "good" or "bad" religion, <<ciro-santilli>> has seen absolutely nothing in it that is worse than any <<flg-religion,other major religion>> say, e.g., <<christianity>>.

Some possibly neutral Cult analysts analyzing if FLG is good or bad:

* https://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-prc-and-falun-gong-langone

Against:

* https://www.culteducation.com/group/1254-falun-gong.html

In the end however, since there is nothing obviously completely creepy about FLG, all such discussions are basically equivalent to <<democracy-is-a-religion,"is the Left better than the Right">>, and cannot be answered.

One interesting linguistic aspect is that "cult" normally translates in Chinese as "邪教" which means "Evil religion".

As mentioned before, Ciro does not believe that FLG is an "Evil Cult", just another "Acceptable Cult", and therefore would not use "邪教" to describe it.

Amusingly, <<li-hongzhi,Li>> calls the communists Communist Evil Party (中共邪党) in cannon, well played: https://gb.falundafa.org/chigb/jiangfa5_2.htm

The word "Cult" is much more ambiguous in English however, and does not necessarily imply "Evil" in certain contexts, just "worship".

For example, People from <<ciro-santilli>>'s mother's Protestant Church in Brazil, all say that they are going "to the cult" ("culto" in Portuguese) when referring to when they are going to church to pray, sing and read the Bible together, here's a Wikipedia page in Portuguese page about it: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culto_(Evangelicalismo)

And obviously, the origin of the word "cult" is exactly the same as that of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cultivate#Etymology["cultivate"] as in "cultivate the crops" (which is also how Falun Gong believers refer to practicing Falun Gong: "cultivation practice"). All of those come from the https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cult#Etymology[Latin "colō"], which means simply "to protect".

[[ccp-cult]]
===== CCP cult (中共邪教)

The CCP also has many cult-like characteristics, notably <<xi-jinping,"The Guru is always right">>, which is mentioned on <<orange-papers>> itself under "The Guru is always right." (highlight by <<ciro-santilli,Ciro>>):

____
The Guru, his church, and his teachings are always right, and above criticism, and beyond reproach.

In some cults, the guru is dead, but the principle is the same. I use the word "guru" loosely here; in many cults the charismatic leader has the title of minister, priest, yogi, swami, prophet, or all-knowing wise man. **Or even, "<<mao-zedong,Chairman Mao>>."** In any case, the leader is always right.
____

And they also claim that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous[Alcoholics Anonymous] could be characterized as a cult. Very cool. What else could be powerful enough to get you off a physical addiction, than a mental addiction, right?

____
<<mao-zedong,Mao>> is the Father +
<<xi-jinping,Xi>> is the Son +
The CCP is the Holy Spirit
____

Both Mao and Xi have produced their own sacred books which must be revered, much like <<li-hongzhi>>'s <<flg-canon>>:

* Xi's: <<xi-jinping-thought>>
* Mao's: <<little-red-book>>

Furthermore, both of those books are based on speeches, just like just like Li Hongzhi's speeches become instant canon.

This devotion can also be seen in Xi's benevolent personification: <<xi-dada>>.

This is also observed by <<falun-gong>> itself as a response to the CCP <<flg-cult,accusing Falun Gong of being an Evil Cult>>. E.g.: https://www.ntdtv.com/gb/2019/07/01/a102612683.html from <<ntdtv>>, and Falun Gong is completely right here.

See also:

* <<democracy-is-a-religion>>
* <<if-you-are-against-the-ccp-then-you-are-against-china>> is the <<ccp>>'s version of <<>>

[[xi-halo]]
.Xi Jinping with a Halo edited in to make <<ccp-cult,the obvious more obvious>>. The texts reads <<xi-jinping-thought,"习近平思想" (Xi Jinping Thought)>>. Watermark reads "Gucci Minh @Laborwave", so presumably from https://www.instagram.com/laborwavedesigns/[], but I didn't have the patience to find the picture, but it very likey comes from there, a ton of great communist memes in that account. https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/77vfi8/uphold_xi_jinping_thought/[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Xi_Jinping_thought_halo.jpg[height=400]

.Side-by-side comparison between devotional pictures of <<xi-jinping>> (taken from the cover of <<xi-jinping-thought>>) and <<li-hongzhi>>. The stylistic resemblance is striking.
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Xi_Jinping_vs_Li_Hongzhi_prophet_pictures.jpg[height=400]

[[orange-papers]]
===== Orange Papers (橙色文件)

Amazing website talking about Cults and many other things!

The key page of the website is the "Cult Test": https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html[]. This is a must read. It is basically the https://cirosantilli.com/tv-tropes[TV Tropes] of Cults.

Down as of 2020-04 archive:

* 2016 "Cult Test" archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20160205090248/https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
* latest working homepage archive from 2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190925201137/https://www.orange-papers.org/

TODO who is the author? Copyright says by "A. Orange". Is it the real name, or just a pun for "I ate an orange"?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Orangepapers/comments/5sh7kg/any_info_on_what_happened_to_the_orange_papers/ mentions the creator's first name is "Terry", and that the website went down due to financial trouble.

Claimed interview with him on the 2013 SAFE RECOVERY podcast: https://podfanatic.com/podcast/safe-recovery/episode/orange-papers-founder-terry-talks-about-the-truth-about-aa-1

The website also offered compressed archives, but Ciro could not find any of those on the Wayback Machine, although it is hard to be sure because there are many different timestamps available, the section reads:

____
Get this entire web site in a set of compressed packages so that you can read it later offline (and burn CDs and give copies to friends).

Archives are available in both Unix/Linux tarred-gzipped format, or Micro$uck Windoze winzip format.

Current as of 2016-12-07 (yyyy-mm-dd).

Total Size = 900 MB compressed (1.7 GB uncompressed), but no file is larger than 14 MB, to prevent file size problems with some systems, like Comcast.

Get either set; you don't need both, as the files contained are identical.
____

File names are of form:

* `Orange_Papers-alpha-2016-12-07.tar.gz`
* `Orange_Papers-imgs000-2011-01-01.tar.gz`

A mirror with many broken links and images: http://aorange1.tripod.com/

And the website also has a Free Tibet flag at the bottom.

Many of the points highlighted at are very very interesting and Ciro feels that they apply strongly to <<falun-gong>>:

* "Instant Community" and "Instant intimacy": you instantly join the cult family, and are very very likely to believe or at least consider anything anyone else in the cult says about their religious experiences, no matter how far-fetched, even though it is not <<flg-canon,canon>>
+
Conversely, this also poses a risk for the Cult Leader, as new community ideas can spread very quickly, and if you try to fight them off, they might create a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism[Schism].
* "Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions, groups, or organizations": yes, <<li-hongzhi>> does this all the time, see: <<zhong-gong>>
* "Personal testimonies of earlier converts": see "experience sharing" at <<flg-religion>>
* "The group and its members are special", "Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider": see: "ordinary people (常人)" at <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong>>
* "Making cult members work long hours for free": yes, many FLG members work long long hours for free. Why wouldn't you if you are saving people's souls?
* "Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists": <<falun-gong-media>>
* "Promised Powers or Knowledge" and "It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies": they seem to believe in a <<flg-religion,Judgement Day like event>> and <<flg-medication,health benefits>>
* "The Guru is always right", "You are always wrong", "No Graduates", "The Guru Is Extra-Special", "Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around", "The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.": obviously: <<li-hongzhi>>
** "Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking"
* Membership Rivalry. Members vie with one another for the guru's attention, and for status within the group. Everyone is trying to become part of the favored inner circle. The leader plays the members off against each other in order to maintain his hold over the cult.
* Giggly wonderfulness and starry-eyed faith: <<flg-religion,notably visible during in experience sharing>>

There are also however some points which Ciro feels don't apply, and Ciro praises Falun Gong for those:

* "Dual Purposes": not much of that, most of their propaganda is "we are persecuted unfairly by China", not "let's help the poor"
* "The End Justifies The Means": Li has made it clear that believers must follow the laws of their countries. Cults that violate this tend to not last as long, this is the smart move for cult leaders.

And some points which Ciro feels apply which were mentioned in some other article, (or maybe in Orange Papers but he couldn't find them, TODO find reference?)

* "No time for fun": how could you possibly spend leisure time watching television, etc. when you could be saving the world instead?
* "Focus on the persecution of the Cult": while obviously people who have been persecuted have the right, and almost an obligation, to look for help and share their stories, it is also clear that this is a selling point for the Cult.
+
Why would a nation state attack a Cult? This could give the impression that it is because there is something powerful and true in the Cult, and actually menaces this nation state.
+
For example, Falun Gong puts huge emphasis on its persecution in China, much like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr[Martyrdom] of the Catholic Saints is highly emphasised.

This is especially interesting, because the website does not mention Falun Gong at all it seems: it really seems that all those cults are very similar.

It should also be mentioned though that these points extend to any type of human organization, e.g. <<flg-religion,other religions>>, <<democracy-is-a-religion,political parties>>, job associations, etc.

[[cult-speak]]
====== Cult speak (邪教话，Orange Papers, 橙色文件)

https://web.archive.org/web/20160205090248/https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_cult_speak

"Cult-speak": see also "Newspeak" from <<nineteen-eighty-four>> and some common Falun Gong Cult-speak see: <<flg-religion>>

Falun Gong's slogan is the quite direct to the point:

____
法轮大法好
Falun Gong is good
____

This is in part to fight off the mountains of anti-Falun Gong propaganda created by the <<ccp>>.

Their core values are:

* Truthfulness (真, Zhēn). Self explanatory, and the opposite of the <<ccp>>. Although they sometimes violate that (unknowingly?) for the greater good of the cult, e.g. <<flg-transparent>>.
* Compassion (善, Shàn)
* Forbearance (忍, Rěn): definition according to Oxford Languages: "patient self-control, restraint and tolerance". So in other words: chill out and meditate. And don't do drugs or anything excessive like that.

The slogan and the core values are often placed together as:

____
法轮大法好。真善忍好。
Falun Gong is good. Truthfulness, compassion and forbearance are good.
____

[[careful-control-of-your-image]]
====== Careful control of your image (小心控制你的形象, Orange Papers, 橙色文件)

The cult leader is a master at controlling how people view them.

One aspect of that, is after reaching a certain critical mass of mindless followers, to limit your public appearances to situations in which you have the most control, and notably being surrounded only by your believers.

Because of course: you are human, not a God, and you are going to fuck up from time to time, so why take any risks now that you are already established?

<<li-hongzhi>> does not announce where he is going for the most part, even though he is followed by millions: he just shows up unannounced, and local believers whisper to one another in short advance and come to see him when possible.

As a result, there are almost no recordings of Li Hongzhi except from the early days when he actually had to go out and get new believers hooked himself.

What if he farted, or worse, brain-farted during a presentation, like we all do from time to time? Don't want recordings of that, do we? <<flg-canon>> related to those private presentations is only published after careful review of course.

This reminded Ciro of the <<vissarion>> video he watched, in which VICE was allowed to visit and interview <<russia,Siberian>> prophet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vissarion[Vissarion] (real name Sergey Anatolyevitch Torop Серге́й Анато́льевич То́роп, AKA "The Russian Jesus"), and they note how well he controlled his appearance.

Ciro also heard similar stories of <<stalin>> and <<mao-zedong>> when they would retreat from the public eye for a while.

[[vissarion]]
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5hZfOmk&t=1177
video::W2Cv5hZfOmk[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=1177]

[[different-levels-of-truth]]
====== Different levels of truth (不同层次的真相, Orange Papers, 橙色文件)

https://web.archive.org/web/20160205090248/https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q3.html#cq_levels_of_truth

And closely related: "Deceptive Recruiting"

Falun Gong people don't talk freely about their funny beliefs like <<flg-religion,aliens are amongst us>> to outsiders.

Rather, they lure you in with the exercises first.

Ciro has personally heard the following said many times: "you should not tell this to non-believers, they are not ready for this truth yet".

Conversely, <<dictatorship,dictatorships>>, just like <<flg-cult,cults>>, also have practice different levels of truth, because in the end some level of decision maker has to know the actual truth of the world:

* <<brave-new-world-books>>
* <<internal-media-of-china>>
* <<chernobyl-2019-miniseries>>

[[the-group-is-the-only-way]]
====== Insistence that the group is THE ONLY WAY (坚持他们的团体是唯一的方式生活, Orange Papers, 橙色文件)

https://web.archive.org/web/20160203122607/http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q1.html#cq_only_way

<<ccp>>'s version: <<if-you-are-against-the-ccp-then-you-are-against-china>>.

[[no-humour]]
====== No humour (不能有幽默, Orange Papers, 橙色文件)

https://web.archive.org/web/20160303185341/http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q2.html#cq_no_humor

Basically exactly what is mentioned at <<funny>>. Notably:

* making fun of <<xi-jinping>> is not allowed for Chinese people
* making fun of <<li-hongzhi>> is not allowed for <<falun-gong>> believers

So we go ahead and make fun of both.

[[flg-canon]]
=== What are the canonical Falun Gong texts? (法轮功的经典著作有哪些？)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong

It appears that Falun Gong cannon is present at: https://falundafa.org/

The two main books are:

* "China Falun Gong" (中国法轮功) AKA just "Falun Gong" published in April 1993. 2006 English translation https://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/flg_2006.htm[]. Wikipedia comments:
+
____
Falun Gong is an introductory book that discusses qigong, introduces the principles of the practice, and provides illustrations and explanations of the exercises.
____
+
The first edition contains one of http://qingqing.freebbs.tw/viewthread.php?tid=130###
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong#Zhuan_Falun,_the_main_book[Zhuan Falun] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/转法轮_(书)[转法轮]), published in January 1995. 1998 English version: https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_01.htm[]:
+
According to Wikipedia:
+
____
Zhuan Falun is the main teaching and the most comprehensive work; it is an edited version of Li's nine-lecture series, 54 of which he taught across China between 1992 and 1994.
____
+
Believers very often read from this text when they <<flg-religion,"study the Fa">> in their gatherings. They often read one chapter per session, and can often just say "we read the Nth teaching" (第N讲, so apparently each chapter corresponds to a separate talk). Just like <<xi-jinping-thought>>!

The initial versions of both of those texts contained versions of <<li-hongzhis-hagiography>>.

It contains <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>'s approved texts/speech transcriptions, which are sacred.

The only sacred version is Chinese which is a sacred language, and of which there is only one perfect revision. Islam also appears to place great importance on the sacredness of Arabic in which Mohamed first spoke, perhaps even more: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/plight-uyghurs-why-muslims-wont-speak-their-brethren-112466 Protestants and later the Catholic church, have moved away from such really bad strategy however, the accessibility of Christianity is seen on the entrance of many many churches which have a sign "ALL are welcome". Well played.

<<ciro-santilli>> heard <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> claims the specifically chose to reincarnate in China this last time.

The English translation is made by followers, and gets new revisions to reduce translation imperfections.

However, the Chinese language seems to be fundamentally sacred, and there might never be a sacred English version approved by LHZ.

LHZ is of course a de-facto God with superpowers, and can of course speak all languages, but https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=for%20reasons[for reasons] he didn't just write an English translation himself.

This is a reasonable command to download the English cannon for grepping:

....
wget -r -l inf --no-remove-listing --no-clobber --no-parent -w 2 https://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-books.html
....

TODO: need to find a way to wrap lines, otherwise grep might fail on sentences.

But funnily the Canon books appear to all be copyrighted, likely "to avoid other people from modifying his sacred text", which is funny since the dude's the voice of absolute truth of the universe, but you still gotta copyright that I guess.

Nothing else is canonical. LHZ seems to have said that there are enlightened followers, but has not specified who, so we can't derive canon from anyone else.

Notably, <<flg-organized,FLG media>> such as https://www.minghui.org/ is believer led and thus not canonical, even though believers have very high confidence in it, and LHZ <<flg-organized,directly supports it>>.

CCP <<ccp-cult,cult leaders>> such as <<xi-jinping>> and <<mao-zedong>> have also published their own canon books, e.g.:

* Xi's: <<xi-jinping-thought>>
* Mao's: <<little-red-book>>

.Front and back cover of <<flg-canon,Zhuan Falun>>, first edition (1994). It is said amongst believers that <<flg-verifiable,the Lotus flower on the back of these books have magically opened progressively as time passed>>. http://qingqing.freebbs.tw/viewthread.php?tid=165###[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Zhuan_Falun.jpg[height=500]

.Side-by-side English and Chinese version of Zhuan Falun circa 2010s. These covers are very widespread. Note how the Chinese cover is yellow, almost golden, to indicate that it is cannon. And translations in all other languages are blue, to indicate non-canon. Also note how the drawings of mystical elements have been removed in favor an abstract presentation. This is part of <<different-levels-of-truth>>. https://hkfalundafa.org/2-如何學煉法輪功.html[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Zhuan_Falun_2010s_English_vs_Chinese.jpg[height=500]

[[does-ciro-santilli-support-falun-gong-or-just-use-it-because-it-is-censored]]
=== Does Ciro Santilli support Falun Gong, or just use it because it is censored? (三西猴是支持法轮功，还是仅仅因为它被审查而使用它？)

Ciro Santilli doesn't support FLG specifically, only freedom of religion. See of course: <<flg-bias>>.

Ciro uses it in his usernames simply because it is the most banned and censored one in China today.

He believe that <<flg-thoughtcrime,individuals should only be put in jail for what they do, not for what they believe>>.

He considers FLG <<flg-religion,a religion like any other>>, and he is against its ban, as that of all other religions.

He also believes that freedom of speech and democracy imply that FLG and other religions will exist. If you want freedom, you have to <<intolerance,accept other people's choices>>.

Otherwise, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy and communism can also be considered as religions>>, and banned.

See also: <<flg-verifiable>>.

[[flg-daily]]
=== How is it like to live with Falun Gong believers? (与法轮功信徒一起生活是一种怎样的体验？)

This will obviously vary from believer to believer, but here is <<ciro-santilli>>'s experience.

Like any other religion that is taken seriously, they spend several hours per week doing their standard religious activities: <<flg-religion>>.

Ciro has never seen them, or anyone we know from FLG say or do something that he consider morally incorrect because of FLG.

This does not prevent <<wife,his wife>> from working normally.

Ciro's mother-in-law, who is retired, dedicates all her time to Falun Gong when she is not taking care of the house.

Ciro's mother is also religious (link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism[Protestant]), and he gets a very similar feeling about both groups.

Like other religions, Falun Gong gives them meaning in life, and Ciro admires that they pursue their belief energetically, just as he persues his beliefs energetically.

Ciro much prefers that Ciro's mother-in-law does Falun Gong, which is a noble meaningful goal, rather than watch stupid crap on television.

Also, although he is <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>, Ciro also lives in a similar way.

Ciro's religion is that of science and technology, and he pursue it fervently by trying to learn and teach it and spend several hours a week doing that, even when it does not give him money immediately.

If Ciro pursue his meaning, why should he prevent anyone from pursuing theirs?

Previously, Ciro's wife and mother-in-law would sometimes try to persuade him to learn Falun Gong, which was annoying.

But every time he told them very clearly that he knows where to download the books if I want to, and that he may never want to read them, and that his wife must either accept this fact or leave him.

And they have accepted that: they think Ciro's a good person, and they can accept that you can also be a good person even without doing Falun Gong.

Ciro does feel Falun Gong makes Ciro's mother-in-law more reluctant to use or actively search for <<flg-medication,medication or treatment>>. But he thinks it is also linked to the fact that she didn't have a very good education or a good health system around. However, if Ciro and his wife give her something, she will take it. Ciro's wife does not have any resistance to medication.

One thing that does worry Ciro is that Ciro's mother in law sleeps too little every night, doing one of the Falun Gong meditations late in the evening, and then waking up very early to a long series of reading and exercise sessions. But it is hard to say if she would be any different without Falun Gong, it could just be her nature.

Bibliography:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795 at <<zhihu>>

[[flg-changed]]
=== Falun Gong is completely different in the West than it was in China (法轮功在西方与在中国完全不同)

I believe that it has changed.

But isn't that the case of every cultural religious movement that migrates to a completely new culture?

Main points which may have changed:

* It has become more organized.
+
But why shouldn't they organize to defend themselves now that they have the chance without being put into prison?
+
The CCP is highly organized and has way more resources.
* Less emphasis is given to the religious/mystical aspect, and more to the corporal exercises, and health aspect.
+
This may be because people in the "West" are:
+
** are "scientific-educated" atheists who wouldn't go for a "religion"
** already have other religions, which would view FLG as a taboo

Also maybe only the richest and most educated believers managed to escape China, and thus the movement carried that bias outside China.

If you know more ways in which it may have changed, let me know.

But once again, we can know nothing for sure about the past in China because of censorship.

Even if you saw something yourself, how can you be sure that it is representative?

And if it has changed, now that it has changed, maybe China should unban it?

See also:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/23988890 at <<zhihu>>

[[falun-gong-has-been-funded-by-the-us-government-at-least-once-therefore-it-is-evil]]
=== Falun Gong has been funded by the US government at least once, therefore it is evil (法轮功至少被美国政府资助过一次，所以是邪恶的)

1.5M USD in 2010 for a FLG controlled internet freedom group https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8678760.stm

But well, if you are going to do something anyway, and someone offers you money, why wouldn't you take it?

Taking the money does of course give a "bad impression" that someone is trying to buy influence, but does it in itself imply that you are doing something bad?

But do you really think that the US government paid that to buy influence in FLG? What would they force upon that FLG group that they didn't already want to do? Isn't it more likely that the US government wanted them to continue doing exactly what they were doing?

Every government funds groups it supports, it is an all out war I suppose. Compare that to the propaganda funds of the CCP.

What about the funding of political campaigns, which vastly outnumbers 1.5M USD every year?

[[follow-the-law]]
=== Falun Gong is illegal in China, we must follow the law (法轮功在中国是非法的，我们必须遵守法律)

If a law is unfair, we must fight to change it.

It was perfectly legal for <<nazi,Nazis>> to kill Jews. Does it make that right?

But in the end, the commies don't even bother passing or following laws, they just fuck people anyways without one: <<rule-of-law>>.

The problem in <<dictatorship,dictatorships>> is that the people have no power at all to change the law because there is no <<democracy>>.

The excuse that "we have to do this to follow Chinese law in order to operate in China", is exactly what all <<western-companies-that-comply-with-chinese-censorship-requests>> do. If Chinese law mandated killing Jews, they would likely comply.

The trick though is to delegate the dirty work to Chinese branches and employees, as a way to distance themselves from the activity. This is also generally a regulartory requirement of the Chinese government however.

[[flg-fake]]
=== Falun Gong is fake (法轮功是假的)

The same can be argued about any other religion or political belief of type: it is better if we organize society in this or that way.

How can you disprove their belief, when as in any other religion, every affirmation made hinges on "miracles only happen around when true believers are around" or "only true believers can perceive evidence in their hearts / minds directly". He died of cancer or <<covid>>? Not a true believer, deep withing his heart, something was wrong.

Conversely, do you understand the full sequence of experiments that imply quantum field theory? Have you seen videos of those experiments? Have you attended live demonstrations? Do you understand the construction of the experimentation apparatus? Yet, why do you believe it?

More importantly: what do you propose that should be done about it? Should we kill followers? Or is jail enough?

Also do let me know when you have achieved irrefutable proof that democracy/freedom of speech are the optimal ways to organize the government: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

See also: <<flg-religion>>

[[flg-verifiable]]
==== Falun Gong never makes any predictions that can be reasonably verified by non-believers (法轮功从不做任何非信徒可以合理验证的预言)

Exactly, just like any other <<flg-religion>>, this is why <<ciro-santilli>> is <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>> and thinks Falun Gong metaphysics is bullshit.

Notably, <<li-hongzhi>> explicitly forbids display of magical powers gained by believers to non-believers: <<flg-supernatural-powers>> for "reasons". What a convenient coincidence, that prevents any verifiability!

Just like in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter[Harry Potter], Falun Gong believers are part of the magical <<flg-religion,Hogwarts world which non-believers, The Muggles>>, cannot access.

The closest claims to observable Ciro has heard are:

* when pictures are taken in sacred events, notably <<shen-yun>>, sometimes you can see magic Falun energy wheels in the pictures
* in the homes of some followers, small magic good plants-like fungi-like things have grown
+
[[flg-fungi]]
.Image of the magic good small plants that grew on a <<falun-gong>> believer's home. They took a photo and it published on <<falun-gong-media,Minghui>> as a 2018 Chinese New Year good wish page to <<li-hongzhi>>. They seem to identify those fungi as mini-link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udumbara_(Buddhism)[udumbaras], which is just a fancy name that Buddhism scriptures use to refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficus_racemosa[cluster fig flowers] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/聚果榕[优昙婆罗], amongst a billion other existing phonetic transliterations) emphasising their magic properties. Here's a 2007 from <<epoch-times>>: https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/7/10/7/n1859364.htm[], and another one https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/9/5/3/n2514838.htm[], and another one from 2011: https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/11/11/25/n3440323.htm[]. Only the most relevant news on that newspaper. Ciro could not find <<flg-canon>> mentions however. If any biologist reads this, for the love of God send me a Wikipedia page with the possible species. TODO transcribe the Chinese 吉林市大法弟子恭祝师新年快乐。（优昙婆罗花） 创世主救度众生YADA YADA。(Falun Gong practitioners from <<jilin>> wish The Master a happy (Chinese) New Year (udumbara Flower) The creator of the world saves all living things, ...) This type of "congratulate the Master for New Year, congratulate the Master for his birthday etc. by sending photos to <<minghui>> for selection is common practice in the Falun Gong community. https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2018/2/17/168396p.html[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Falun_Gong_magic_fungi.jpg[height=600]
* the <<flg-canon,sacred books>> of some believers had a closed lotus flower when they were bought, and after several years, the flower opened

but Ciro suspects they are not even <<flg-canon,canon>>, just believer oral culture.

Of course, like every other religion, reality happens to be is constructed in a way that prevents non-believers to verify anything with their eyes in a reproducible way.

Or a Jesus put it in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4&version=NIV[Luke 4]:

[[luke-4]]
____
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

"'He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
____

Ah good old <<li-hongzhi,prophets>>, their tricks haven't changed a bit in 2 thousand years! This is why <<ciro-santilli>> follows instead the religion of <<democracy-is-a-religion,science and freedom of speech>>, because those religions instead say:

____
Test your God. Test your God a billion times. And if your God proves wrong just once, disbelieve it.
____

The Pontius Pilate Scene from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)[The Last Temptation of Christ (1988)] comes to mind, quotes:

____
Pontius: It's also said that you do miracles? Is this good magic or bad magic? Can we have some sort of demonstration?

Jesus: No, I'm not a trained animal, I'm not a magician.

Pontius: Well, that's disappointing. This means that you are just another Jewish politician.
____

and:

____
Pontius: It's one way to change the way that people live, but you want to change the way that they think and that they feel.

Jesus: All I'm saying is the change will happen with love. Not with killing.

Pontius: Either way it's dangerous. It's against Rome. It's against the way the world is. In killing or loving, it's all the same. It simply doesn't matter how you want to change things, we don't want them changed.
____

.https://youtube.com/watch?v=pXGsio9H1xs The Last Temptation of Christ (1988) - Pontius Pilate Scene (5/10) | Movieclips.
video::pXGsio9H1xs[youtube,height=400,width=600]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama[Futurama] also has an interesting take:

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObbVO3A3BvA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bender_(Futurama)[Bender] meets God in Futurama S03E20 "link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfellas[Godfellas]". In their talk, they comment on how "if as God you give them everything, they will grow dependent on you, and if you give them nothing, they will despise you". And so the best approach as a God might be "to influence things as if you weren't there".
video::ObbVO3A3BvA[youtube,height=400,width=600]

[[against-censorship-and-flg]]
=== Many people both are against both censorship and Falun Gong (我要民主，但是我还要禁止法轮功)

Ciro know that, and that supporting FLG is "bad" for his public image with most Chinese, including those that are against censorship.

But <<dictator-needs-gfw,without censorship, there will be democracy>>, and with democracy FLG followers will have voting rights, and FLG will become legal.

Ciro thinks that the situation is very similar to <<flg-religion,Scientology>> in the USA today: most people dislike it, but believe that you can believe whatever you want.

Democracy and Communism <<democracy-is-a-religion,can also be considered as religions and persecuted>>.

Isn't it convenient when a dictatorship gets rid of those weirdos for you? But not so much when suddenly you or your family is the weirdo...

If you are not ready to accept the beliefs of others, dictatorship is the only choice for you.

It is also interesting to note how Falun Gong is a good source of <<censorship-circumvention>> material.

See also:

* <<intolerance>>
* <<flg-bias>>

[[democracy-is-a-religion]]
==== Why does Ciro Santilli say that democracy is a religion just like Falun Gong? (为什么三西猴说民主就像法轮功一样是一种宗教？)

Because it also specifies irrational and fundamental aspects of how one should live, notably voting and freedom of speech.

Just like the <<ccp-cult>> has one fundamental belief: <<stability,the Party is always right>>.

Ban <<falun-gong>>, and you have banned democracy.

Accept democracy, and you will have <<falun-gong>>.

There is no in-between.

[[flg-stability]]
==== Falun Gong had to be banned because it was a threat to the stability of the country (法轮功必须被取缔，因为它威胁到国家的稳定)

Then they link to the Taping Rebellion:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

Of course FLG was a threat to the stability of the country.

It is, as <<ciro-santilli>> has said, a highly organized political power: <<flg-political>>.

However, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy>> is a threat to the stability country in the exact same way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

Anything that goes against a dictatorship is a threat to the stability of the country.

Now read: <<stability>>

[[many-people-say-they-do-falun-gong-only-to-get-visas-to-the-usa]]
=== Many people say they do Falun Gong only to get VISAs to the USA (很多人说他们修炼法轮功只是为了拿到美国签证)

<<ciro-santilli>> heard this a few times, and I believe it has happened.

But I don't see how this is relevant at all to this discussion:

* if they are not really FLG believers, they should be prosecuted, but this says nothing about the real FLG believers,
* if they are, then why wouldn't they seek a VISA, since they are in constant threat of going to jail or worse in China, and the USA law gives them that right?

Sample news:

* https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/09/28/652218318/thousands-could-be-deported-as-government-targets-asylum-mills-clients

[[flg-witness]]
=== I have personally seen people do bad things because of Falun Gong

Either direct suicide or <<flg-medication,dying because of not taking medication>>.

First, I'm not saying I don't believe you, and I'm sorry about what happened.

But your testimony is worthless unless you give the following:

* clear unique personal identification
+
This is because the CCP has thousands of <<wumao,wumaos>> who could make fake reports.
+
There are basically two ways to do that:
+
. your testimony is done in video form on YouTube clearly showing your face as you make it
. links between a notable social media presence that is hard to achieve, e.g. Twitter with many followers, Stack overflow with a lot of rep, and the account
+
Either of those must contain / link to information that uniquely identifies you. Generally, full name, city and date of birth is enough.
* a precise testimony that states exactly what you saw happen with your own eyes, or heard from people that are very close to you.
+
The testimony must include:
+
--
** when the events happened
** where they happened, in which city at the very least
** the full names of who did what
--
+
This is to:
+
** make it easier to verify the truth of the event
** uniquely identify the event so we don't count a single event multiple times

If you do provide all of the above, I add your report to a list of reports that I will maintain. This list does not exist yet because there were no valid reports yet.

Next consider this:

* are you sure that Falun Gong made the person do the bad thing, and that the person wouldn't have done it anyway?
+
Did someone from Falun Gong told the person to do it?
+
I bet that if you look into patients of psychiatrists, you will find more suicides than average. So should we ban psychiatry?
* are you sure that the order came from <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>, and that it was not just some disgruntled local leader using Falun Gong for his personal madness and doing things he did not approve?
+
Branch Davidians were inspired by <<christianity>>. So should we ban Christianity? What about the majority of Christians who have never done anything bad?
* only statistics have any meaning, and it would require a very large number of reports to make up statistics, so you will likely be wasting your time. I will do my part and maintain a list however.
* if we ask for FLG believers to compile a list of horrors they have suffered, which they have already been doing since the start of the persecution, I bet that their list will be much longer than yours, because they are so <<flg-organized,well organized>>

[[flg-persecution]]
=== Falun Gong does not have proof of their persecution claims (法轮功没有被迫害的证据)

How much proof do you think they would be able to get when there is no freedom of the press?

Do you think that forbidding a <<flg-important,70 million>> person religion could have gone smoothly?

Do you think the thousands of personal accounts of human rights violations that exist are all fake, and don't indicate that many, many more have taken place but fallen under censorship?

Conversely, there is no reliable proof that FLG is bad as claimed by CCP that has been verified by international media.

[[western-media-has-exaggerated-reports-on-falun-gong-for-propaganda-reasons]]
==== Western media has exaggerated reports on Falun Gong for propaganda reasons (西方媒体以宣传为由夸大法轮功报道)

Possibly true, but which reports are you talking about specifically?

All that I care about is:

* it is censored today
* if you do it you go to jail
* there were tens of millions of followers at the time of the ban

which I think are undeniable.

The only question that matters is: should it be banned or not?

And as usual: <<censorship-makes-no-one-trust-your-country>>, so which reports can we trust more?

[[sun-yi-falun-gong]]
==== Sun Yi (孙毅, 2008)

Documentary about him, TODO are the producers Falun Gong believers?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Masanjia
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/求救信

Masanjia re-education through labor camp where he was kept:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanjia_re-education_through_labor_camp
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/馬三家女子勞教所 TODO the Chinese page says female-only, weird

Coverage:

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45976946 "The SOS in my Halloween decorations"

[[flg-thoughtcrime]]
=== Someone from movement X did something bad, therefore the movement should be banned (X运动中的某个人做了坏事，因此该运动应该被禁止)

By this logic, everyone should go to jail. The law should only punish individuals.

The communist party, which has had continuous power since 1949, killed millions during the <<cultural-revolution>>. Surely they must be banned, no?

But the CCP has changed so much since those days, <<ciro-santilli>> hears you say.

Ciro agrees. And <<flg-changed,so has Falun Gong>>.

See also: "thoughtcrime" from <<nineteen-eighty-four>>.

Or if you like shitty movies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)[Minority Report (2002)].

[[movement-x-tells-people-to-do-something-bad]]
==== Movement X tells people to do something bad, therefore the movement should be banned (运动X告诉人们做坏事，因此运动应该被禁止)

E.g. kill.

Yes, convincing someone to do something bad is as bad as doing it yourself of course, and must be forbidden.

Now proceed to prove that FLG made and will continue making people do bad things, going through:

* <<flg-witness>>
* <<flg-changed>>

[[tiananmen-square-self-immolation-incident]]
===== Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident (天安门自焚事件, 2001)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_self-immolation_incident
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/天安门自焚事件

This has been one of the major anti-Falun Gong propaganda pieces by the CCP, and one of the most refuted by Falun Gong propaganda even as of 2020.

<<ciro-santilli>> believes that:

* as usual from the pre-Internet age, we will never know the truth for sure, because China has <<censorship,no freedom of the press>>, and <<censorship-makes-no-one-trust-your-country,no one believes anything that the Chinese government says>>
* it is possible that they were Falun Gong believers. What would expect from <<flg-important,banning a 70 million person religion>>?
* it is very unlikely that they had approval or instructions from <<li-hongzhi>>. Li Hongzhi's literature maintains that suicide is very bad for you, e.g.: from 2003 <<flg-canon,canon>> https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/20030420L.html
+
____
Question: Some people can't give up Dafa, but also can't let go of their humanness. On the surface they are cultivating and doing some Fa-rectification things, but they are in fact stirring up trouble and creating disturbances, with some even committing suicide or being gay. What will become of these people? Will they go to the dimension of demons? And what will happen to those who stick up for them?

Teacher: I know about all of that. Unless I have absolutely no choice I don't want to expel them, so I'm observing and watching these things. It's best that these people, if they want to do themselves justice, wake up quickly--wake up quickly! If you're determined to do that, then tell Dafa disciples about the things you've done, and that could help. Time is running short. I'm really worried about you. Don't take Master's mercy so lightly. The Fa has standards.
____
+
and from 1998 canon https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/19980329L.html
+
____
Many people who are capable of cultivating get sucked into them, and some of them engage in suicide - it's a mess
____
* maybe people should be allowed to choose how they want to die, see also:
** <<flg-medication>>
** <<honour-suicides-in-chinese-history>>