README.adoc

Do you want to use them among ordinary people? You are absolutely not allowed to use them among ordinary people at will.
____

But in the end, since  <<flg-fake,everything is fake>>, there is only one reward that you can possibly get if you are both lucky and crazy hard working: <<membership-rivalry-orange-papers,some attention from the master>>.

See also:

* <<amazing-cultivation-simulator-review-by-ssethtzeentach-2021,Amazing Cultivation Simulator review by SsethTzeentach (2021) (了不起的修仙模拟器)>>

[[making-cult-members-work-long-hours-for-free]]
====== Making cult members work long hours for free (Orange papers, 让信徒免费长时间工作, 橙色文件)

https://web.archive.org/web/20160304200219/http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q9.html#cq_work4free

Many Falun Gong members work long long hours for free to help spread their religion, either by:

* <<falun-gong-preaching,preaching on the streets by giving out leaflets or demonstrating their exercise>>
* working for <<falun-gong-media>>

because spreading those are religious obligations.

But on the other hand, why wouldn't do that if you believed that there is a <<li-hongzhi,living god on our Earth which most "ordinary people" don't know about>>, and that you are saving people's souls? If a religion doesn't make you do things for it, that belief is useless. In the case of Christianity however this is possibly in part linked to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism[Evangelical] belief of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia[salvation by grace alone]. Quite convenient right, you don't really have to do anything concrete to be saved, only believe and repent.

Furthermore, a very similar mindset is present in entrepreneurs, who are often driven to do long long work for an ideal. Sometimes, e.g. in <<ciro-santilli>>'s case, even to make https://cirosantilli.com/ourbigbook-com[a not-for-profit].

And Ciro Santilli's mother would spend countless hours helping the less fortunate after her retirement in activities semi-linked to her Protestant church.

So this point is not so simple to criticize.

But it is sad to watch people waste their lives <<flg-fake,for something that is a lie>>.

[[membership-rivalry-orange-papers]]
====== Membership Rivalry (Orange papers, 让信徒免费长时间工作, 橙色文件)

https://web.archive.org/web/20160304132516/http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q7.html#cq_member_rivalry

While <<ciro-santilli>> hasn't personally witnessed any malicious internal competition in Falun Gong, this does make the more interesting point that:

____
Members vie with one another for the <<li-hongzhi,guru>>'s attention, and for status within the group. Everyone is trying to become part of the favored inner circle. The leader plays the members off against each other in order to maintain his hold over the cult.
____

and this is very true. Because since you, <<flg-fake,everything is a lie>> you <<promised-powers-or-knowledge,don't get the promised goods>>, and the only thing that is left for you to actually get is the guru's attention and the social status associated with it.

The inner circle status mechanic is also closed related to <<careful-control-of-your-image>>, see the <<vissarion,Vissarion>> video.

Some inner circle mechanics are also well shown in <<wild-wild-country-2017>> through Sheela.

[[flg-canon]]
=== Canonical Falun Gong texts (法轮功的经典著作)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong

It appears that Falun Gong cannon is present at: https://falundafa.org/

The two main books are:

* "China Falun Gong" (中国法轮功) AKA just "Falun Gong" published in April 1993. 2006 English translation https://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/flg_2006.htm[]. Wikipedia comments:
+
____
Falun Gong is an introductory book that discusses qigong, introduces the principles of the practice, and provides illustrations and explanations of the exercises.
____
+
The first edition contains one of http://qingqing.freebbs.tw/viewthread.php?tid=130###
* <<zhuan-falun>>

The initial versions of both of those texts contained versions of <<li-hongzhis-hagiography>>.

It contains <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>'s approved texts/speech transcriptions, which are sacred.

The only sacred version is Chinese which is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language[sacred language], and of which there is only one perfect revision.

This is <<flg-religion,perfectly analogous>> to the role of:

* Arabic in Islam. Although Islam goes even further, and only the Arabic version can be recited in prayers. Non-Arabic-speakers have to just memorize sounds to perform Salah. https://nationalinterest.org/feature/plight-uyghurs-why-muslims-wont-speak-their-brethren-112466 suggests that this is a major reason why <<other-islam-countries-speak-up-for-uyghur>>
* Hebrew in Judaism

Protestants and later the Catholic church, have moved away from such really bad strategy however, the accessibility of Christianity is seen on the entrance of many many churches which have a sign "ALL are welcome". Perhaps this is also related to the fact that Christianism was already based on translating earlier Judaic texts to Greek, so the sacred language barrier was already broken. Well played.

<<ciro-santilli>> heard <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> claims the specifically chose to reincarnate in China this last time.

The English translation is made by followers, and gets new revisions from time to time to reduce translation imperfections.

However, the Chinese language seems to be fundamentally sacred, and there might never be a sacred English version approved by LHZ.

LHZ is of course a de-facto God with superpowers, and can of course speak all languages, but https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=for%20reasons[for reasons] he didn't just write an English translation himself.

This is a reasonable command to download the English cannon for grepping:

....
wget -r -l inf --no-remove-listing --no-clobber --no-parent -w 2 https://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-books.html
....

TODO: need to find a way to wrap lines, otherwise grep might fail on sentences.

But funnily the Canon books appear to all be copyrighted, likely "to avoid other people from modifying his sacred text", which is funny since the dude's the voice of absolute truth of the universe, but you still gotta copyright that I guess.

Nothing else is canonical. LHZ seems to have said that there are enlightened followers, but has not specified who, so we can't derive canon from anyone else.

Notably, <<flg-organized,FLG media>> such as https://www.minghui.org/ is believer led and thus not canonical, even though believers have very high confidence in it, and LHZ <<flg-organized,directly supports it>>.

CCP <<ccp-cult,cult leaders>> such as <<xi-jinping>> and <<mao-zedong>> have also published their own canon books, e.g.:

* Xi's: <<xi-jinping-thought>>
* Mao's: <<little-red-book>>

[[zhuan-falun]]
==== Zhuan Falun (转法轮)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong#Zhuan_Falun,_the_main_book
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/转法轮_(书)

The main book of <<flg-canon>>.

Published in January 1995.

1998 English version: https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_01.htm[]:

According to Wikipedia:

____
Zhuan Falun is the main teaching and the most comprehensive work; it is an edited version of Li's nine-lecture series, 54 of which he taught across China between 1992 and 1994.
____

Believers very often read from this text when they <<flg-religion,"study the Fa">> in their gatherings. They often read one chapter per session, and can often just say "we read the Nth teaching" (第N讲, so apparently each chapter corresponds to a separate talk). Just like <<xi-jinping-thought>> (and other Chinese religious traditions)!

.Front and back cover of <<zhuan-falun>>, first edition (1994). It is said amongst believers that <<flg-verifiable,the Lotus flower on the back of these books have magically opened progressively as time passed>>. http://qingqing.freebbs.tw/viewthread.php?tid=165###[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Zhuan_Falun.jpg[height=500]

.Side-by-side English and Chinese version of <<zhuan-falun>> circa 2010s. These covers are very widespread. Note how the Chinese cover is yellow, almost golden, to indicate that it is cannon. And translations in all other languages are blue, to indicate non-canon. Also note how the drawings of mystical elements have been removed in favor an abstract presentation. This is part of <<different-levels-of-truth>>. That golden cover is a direct recall to Bhuddist scriptures have been published traditionally in some epochs in China, just Google Images for "佛经". https://hkfalundafa.org/2-如何學煉法輪功.html[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Zhuan_Falun_2010s_English_vs_Chinese.jpg[height=500]

[[does-ciro-santilli-support-falun-gong-or-just-use-it-because-it-is-censored]]
=== Does Ciro Santilli support Falun Gong, or just use it because it is censored? (三西猴是支持法轮功，还是仅仅因为它被审查而使用它？)

Ciro Santilli doesn't support FLG specifically, only freedom of religion. See of course: <<flg-bias>>.

Ciro uses it in his usernames simply because it is the most banned and censored one in China today.

He believe that <<flg-thoughtcrime,individuals should only be put in jail for what they do, not for what they believe>>.

He considers FLG <<flg-religion,a religion like any other>>, and he is against its ban, as that of all other religions.

He also believes that freedom of speech and democracy imply that FLG and other religions will exist. If you want freedom, you have to <<intolerance,accept other people's choices>>.

Otherwise, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy and communism can also be considered as religions>>, and banned.

See also: <<flg-verifiable>>.

[[flg-daily]]
=== How is it like to live with Falun Gong believers? (与法轮功信徒一起生活是一种怎样的体验？)

This will obviously vary from believer to believer, but here is <<ciro-santilli>>'s experience.

Like any other religion that is taken seriously, they spend several hours per week doing their standard religious activities: <<flg-religion>>.

Ciro has never seen them, or anyone we know from FLG say or do something that he consider morally incorrect because of FLG.

This does not prevent <<wife,his wife>> from working normally.

Ciro's mother-in-law, who is retired, dedicates all her time to Falun Gong when she is not taking care of the house.

Ciro's mother is also religious (link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism[Protestant]), and he gets a very similar feeling about both groups.

Like other religions, Falun Gong gives them meaning in life, and Ciro admires that they pursue their belief energetically, just as he persues his beliefs energetically.

Ciro much prefers that Ciro's mother-in-law does Falun Gong, which is a noble meaningful goal, rather than watch stupid crap on television.

Also, although he is <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>, Ciro also lives in a similar way.

Ciro's religion is that of science and technology, and he pursue it fervently by trying to learn and teach it and spend several hours a week doing that, even when it does not give him money immediately.

If Ciro pursue his meaning, why should he prevent anyone from pursuing theirs?

Previously, Ciro's wife and mother-in-law would sometimes try to persuade him to learn Falun Gong, which was annoying.

But every time he told them very clearly that he knows where to download the books if I want to, and that he may never want to read them, and that his wife must either accept this fact or leave him.

And they have accepted that: they think Ciro's a good person, and they can accept that you can also be a good person even without doing Falun Gong.

Ciro does feel Falun Gong makes Ciro's mother-in-law more reluctant to use or actively search for <<flg-medication,medication or treatment>>. But he thinks it is also linked to the fact that she didn't have a very good education or a good health system around. However, if Ciro and his wife give her something, she will take it. Ciro's wife does not have any resistance to medication.

One thing that does worry Ciro is that Ciro's mother in law sleeps too little every night, doing one of the Falun Gong meditations late in the evening, and then waking up very early to a long series of reading and exercise sessions. But it is hard to say if she would be any different without Falun Gong, it could just be her nature.

Bibliography:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795 at <<zhihu>>

[[flg-changed]]
=== Falun Gong is completely different in the West than it was in China (法轮功在西方与在中国完全不同)

I believe that it has changed.

But isn't that the case of every cultural religious movement that migrates to a completely new culture?

Main points which may have changed:

* It has become more organized.
+
But why shouldn't they organize to defend themselves now that they have the chance without being put into prison?
+
The CCP is highly organized and has way more resources.
* Less emphasis is given to the religious/mystical aspect, and more to the corporal exercises, and health aspect.
+
This may be because people in the "West" are:
+
** are "scientific-educated" atheists who wouldn't go for a "religion"
** already have other religions, which would view FLG as a taboo

Also maybe only the richest and most educated believers managed to escape China, and thus the movement carried that bias outside China.

If you know more ways in which it may have changed, let me know.

But once again, we can know nothing for sure about the past in China because of censorship.

Even if you saw something yourself, how can you be sure that it is representative?

And if it has changed, now that it has changed, maybe China should unban it?

See also:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/23988890 at <<zhihu>>

[[falun-gong-has-been-funded-by-the-us-government-at-least-once-therefore-it-is-evil]]
=== Falun Gong has been funded by the US government at least once, therefore it is evil (法轮功至少被美国政府资助过一次，所以是邪恶的)

1.5M USD in 2010 for a FLG controlled internet freedom group https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8678760.stm

But well, if you are going to do something anyway, and someone offers you money, why wouldn't you take it?

Taking the money does of course give a "bad impression" that someone is trying to buy influence, but does it in itself imply that you are doing something bad?

But do you really think that the US government paid that to buy influence in FLG? What would they force upon that FLG group that they didn't already want to do? Isn't it more likely that the US government wanted them to continue doing exactly what they were doing?

Every government funds groups it supports, it is an all out war I suppose. Compare that to the propaganda funds of the CCP.

What about the funding of political campaigns, which vastly outnumbers 1.5M USD every year?

[[follow-the-law]]
=== Falun Gong is illegal in China, we must follow the law (法轮功在中国是非法的，我们必须遵守法律)

If a law is unfair, we must fight to change it.

It was perfectly legal for <<nazi,Nazis>> to kill Jews. Does it make that right?

But in the end, the commies don't even bother passing or following laws, they just fuck people anyways without one: <<rule-of-law>>.

The problem in <<dictatorship,dictatorships>> is that the people have no power at all to change the law because there is no <<democracy>>.

The excuse that "we have to do this to follow Chinese law in order to operate in China", is exactly what all <<western-companies-that-comply-with-chinese-censorship-requests>> do. If Chinese law mandated killing Jews, they would likely comply.

The trick though is to delegate the dirty work to Chinese branches and employees, as a way to distance themselves from the activity. This is also generally a regulatory requirement of the Chinese government however.

[[flg-fake]]
=== Falun Gong is fake (法轮功是假的)

The same can be argued about any other religion or political belief of type: it is better if we organize society in this or that way.

How can you disprove their belief, when as in any other religion, every affirmation made hinges on "miracles only happen around when true believers are around" or "only true believers can perceive evidence in their hearts / minds directly". He died of cancer or <<covid>>? Not a true believer, deep withing his heart, something was wrong. See also: <<flg-verifiable>>.

Conversely, do you understand the full sequence of experiments that imply quantum field theory? Have you seen videos of those experiments? Have you attended live demonstrations? Do you understand the construction of the experimentation apparatus? Yet, why do you believe it?

Because millions of religious believers feel that they have have directly observed God/other dimensions/energies/aliens/some other religious crap through direct experience several times in their lieves, or even daily. Why then is quantum field theory correct, but their daily direct religious experience wrong?

More importantly: what do you propose that should be done about it? Should we kill followers? Or is jail enough?

Also do let me know when you have achieved irrefutable proof that democracy/freedom of speech are the optimal ways to organize the government: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

See also: <<flg-religion>>

[[flg-verifiable]]
==== Falun Gong never makes any predictions that can be reasonably verified by non-believers (法轮功从不做任何非信徒可以合理验证的预言)

Exactly, just like any other <<flg-religion>>, this is why <<ciro-santilli>> is <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>> and thinks Falun Gong metaphysics is bullshit.

Notably, <<li-hongzhi>> explicitly forbids display of magical powers gained by believers to non-believers: <<flg-supernatural-powers>> for "reasons". What a convenient coincidence, that prevents any verifiability!

Just like in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter[Harry Potter], Falun Gong believers are part of the magical <<flg-religion,Hogwarts world which non-believers, The Muggles>>, cannot access.

The closest claims to observable Ciro has heard are:

* when pictures are taken in sacred events, notably <<shen-yun>>, sometimes you can see magic Falun energy wheels in the pictures
* in the homes of some followers, small magic good plants-like fungi-like things have grown
+
[[flg-fungi]]
.Image of the magic good small plants that grew on a <<falun-gong>> believer's home. They took a photo and it published on <<falun-gong-media,Minghui>> as a 2018 Chinese New Year good wish page to <<li-hongzhi>>. They seem to identify those fungi as mini-link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udumbara_(Buddhism)[udumbaras], which is just a fancy name that Buddhism scriptures use to refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficus_racemosa[cluster fig flowers] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/聚果榕[优昙婆罗], amongst a billion other existing phonetic transliterations) emphasising their magic properties. Here's a 2007 from <<epoch-times>>: https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/7/10/7/n1859364.htm[], and another one https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/9/5/3/n2514838.htm[], and another one from 2011: https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/11/11/25/n3440323.htm[]. Only the most relevant news on that newspaper. Ciro could not find <<flg-canon>> mentions however. If any biologist reads this, for the love of God send me a Wikipedia page with the possible species. TODO transcribe the Chinese 吉林市大法弟子恭祝师新年快乐。（优昙婆罗花） 创世主救度众生YADA YADA。(Falun Gong practitioners from <<jilin>> wish The Master a happy (Chinese) New Year (udumbara Flower) The creator of the world saves all living things, ...) This type of "congratulate the Master for New Year, congratulate the Master for his birthday etc. by sending photos to <<minghui>> for selection is common practice in the Falun Gong community. https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2018/2/17/168396p.html[Source].
image::{china-dictatorship-media-base}/Falun_Gong_magic_fungi.jpg[height=600]
* the <<flg-canon,sacred books>> of some believers had a closed lotus flower when they were bought, and after several years, the flower opened

but Ciro suspects they are not even <<flg-canon,canon>>, just believer oral culture.

Of course, like every other religion, reality happens to be is constructed in a way that prevents non-believers to verify anything with their eyes in a reproducible way.

Or a Jesus put it in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4&version=NIV[Luke 4]:

[[luke-4]]
____
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

"'He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
____

Ah good old <<li-hongzhi,prophets>>, their tricks haven't changed a bit in 2 thousand years! This is why <<ciro-santilli>> follows instead the religion of <<democracy-is-a-religion,science and freedom of speech>>, because those religions instead say:

____
Test your God. Test your God a billion times. And if your God proves wrong just once, disbelieve it.
____

The Pontius Pilate Scene from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)[The Last Temptation of Christ (1988)] comes to mind, quotes:

____
Pontius: It's also said that you do miracles? Is this good magic or bad magic? Can we have some sort of demonstration?

Jesus: No, I'm not a trained animal, I'm not a magician.

Pontius: Well, that's disappointing. This means that you are just another Jewish politician.
____

and:

____
Pontius: It's one way to change the way that people live, but you want to change the way that they think and that they feel.

Jesus: All I'm saying is the change will happen with love. Not with killing.

Pontius: Either way it's dangerous. It's against Rome. It's against the way the world is. In killing or loving, it's all the same. It simply doesn't matter how you want to change things, we don't want them changed.
____

.https://youtube.com/watch?v=pXGsio9H1xs The Last Temptation of Christ (1988) - Pontius Pilate Scene (5/10) | Movieclips.
video::pXGsio9H1xs[youtube,height=400,width=600]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama[Futurama] also has an interesting take:

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObbVO3A3BvA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bender_(Futurama)[Bender] meets God in Futurama S03E20 "link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfellas[Godfellas]". In their talk, they comment on how "if as God you give them everything, they will grow dependent on you, and if you give them nothing, they will despise you". And so the best approach as a God might be "to influence things as if you weren't there".
video::ObbVO3A3BvA[youtube,height=400,width=600]

[[against-censorship-and-flg]]
=== Many people both are against both censorship and Falun Gong (我要民主，但是我还要禁止法轮功)

Ciro know that, and that supporting FLG is "bad" for his public image with most Chinese, including those that are against censorship.

But <<dictator-needs-gfw,without censorship, there will be democracy>>, and with democracy FLG followers will have voting rights, and FLG will become legal.

Ciro thinks that the situation is very similar to <<flg-religion,Scientology>> in the USA today: most people dislike it, but believe that you can believe whatever you want.

Democracy and Communism <<democracy-is-a-religion,can also be considered as religions and persecuted>>.

Isn't it convenient when a dictatorship gets rid of those weirdos for you? But not so much when suddenly you or your family is the weirdo...

If you are not ready to accept the beliefs of others, dictatorship is the only choice for you.

It is also interesting to note how Falun Gong is a good source of <<censorship-circumvention>> material.

See also:

* <<intolerance>>
* <<flg-bias>>

[[democracy-is-a-religion]]
==== Why does Ciro Santilli say that democracy is a religion just like Falun Gong? (为什么三西猴说民主就像法轮功一样是一种宗教？)

Because it also specifies irrational and fundamental aspects of how one should live, notably voting and freedom of speech.

Just like the <<ccp-cult>> has one fundamental belief: <<stability,the Party is always right>>.

Ban <<falun-gong>>, and you have banned democracy.

Accept democracy, and you will have <<falun-gong>>.

There is no in-between.

[[flg-stability]]
==== Falun Gong had to be banned because it was a threat to the stability of the country (法轮功必须被取缔，因为它威胁到国家的稳定)

Then they link to the Taping Rebellion:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

Of course FLG was a threat to the stability of the country.

It is, as <<ciro-santilli>> has said, a highly organized political power: <<flg-political>>.

However, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy>> is a threat to the stability country in the exact same way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

Anything that goes against a dictatorship is a threat to the stability of the country.

Now read: <<stability>>

[[many-people-say-they-do-falun-gong-only-to-get-visas-to-the-usa]]
=== Many people say they do Falun Gong only to get VISAs to the USA (很多人说他们修炼法轮功只是为了拿到美国签证)

<<ciro-santilli>> heard this a few times, and I believe it has happened.

But I don't see how this is relevant at all to this discussion:

* if they are not really FLG believers, they should be prosecuted, but this says nothing about the real FLG believers,
* if they are, then why wouldn't they seek a VISA, since they are in constant threat of going to jail or worse in China, and the USA law gives them that right?

Sample news:

* https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/09/28/652218318/thousands-could-be-deported-as-government-targets-asylum-mills-clients

[[flg-witness]]
=== I have personally seen people do bad things because of Falun Gong

Either direct suicide or <<flg-medication,dying because of not taking medication>>.

First, I'm not saying I don't believe you, and I'm sorry about what happened.

But your testimony is worthless unless you give the following:

* clear unique personal identification
+
This is because the CCP has thousands of <<wumao,wumaos>> who could make fake reports.
+
There are basically two ways to do that:
+
. your testimony is done in video form on YouTube clearly showing your face as you make it
. links between a notable social media presence that is hard to achieve, e.g. Twitter with many followers, Stack overflow with a lot of rep, and the account
+
Either of those must contain / link to information that uniquely identifies you. Generally, full name, city and date of birth is enough.
* a precise testimony that states exactly what you saw happen with your own eyes, or heard from people that are very close to you.
+
The testimony must include:
+
--
** when the events happened
** where they happened, in which city at the very least
** the full names of who did what
--
+
This is to:
+
** make it easier to verify the truth of the event
** uniquely identify the event so we don't count a single event multiple times

If you do provide all of the above, I add your report to a list of reports that I will maintain. This list does not exist yet because there were no valid reports yet.

Next consider this:

* are you sure that Falun Gong made the person do the bad thing, and that the person wouldn't have done it anyway?
+
Did someone from Falun Gong told the person to do it?
+
I bet that if you look into patients of psychiatrists, you will find more suicides than average. So should we ban psychiatry?
* are you sure that the order came from <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>, and that it was not just some disgruntled local leader using Falun Gong for his personal madness and doing things he did not approve?
+
Branch Davidians were inspired by <<christianity>>. So should we ban Christianity? What about the majority of Christians who have never done anything bad?
* only statistics have any meaning, and it would require a very large number of reports to make up statistics, so you will likely be wasting your time. I will do my part and maintain a list however.
* if we ask for FLG believers to compile a list of horrors they have suffered, which they have already been doing since the start of the persecution, I bet that their list will be much longer than yours, because they are so <<flg-organized,well organized>>

[[flg-persecution]]
=== Falun Gong does not have proof of their persecution claims (法轮功没有被迫害的证据)

How much proof do you think they would be able to get when there is no freedom of the press?

Do you think that forbidding a <<flg-important,70 million>> person religion could have gone smoothly?

Do you think the thousands of personal accounts of human rights violations that exist are all fake, and don't indicate that many, many more have taken place but fallen under censorship?

Conversely, there is no reliable proof that FLG is bad as claimed by CCP that has been verified by international media.

[[western-media-has-exaggerated-reports-on-falun-gong-for-propaganda-reasons]]
==== Western media has exaggerated reports on Falun Gong for propaganda reasons (西方媒体以宣传为由夸大法轮功报道)

Possibly true, but which reports are you talking about specifically?

All that I care about is:

* it is censored today
* if you do it you go to jail
* there were tens of millions of followers at the time of the ban

which I think are undeniable.

The only question that matters is: should it be banned or not?

And as usual: <<censorship-makes-no-one-trust-your-country>>, so which reports can we trust more?

[[sun-yi-falun-gong]]
==== Sun Yi (孙毅, 2008)

Documentary about him, TODO are the producers Falun Gong believers?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Masanjia
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/求救信

Masanjia re-education through labor camp where he was kept:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanjia_re-education_through_labor_camp
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/馬三家女子勞教所 TODO the Chinese page says female-only, weird

Coverage:

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45976946 "The SOS in my Halloween decorations"

[[flg-thoughtcrime]]
=== Someone from movement X did something bad, therefore the movement should be banned (X运动中的某个人做了坏事，因此该运动应该被禁止)

By this logic, everyone should go to jail. The law should only punish individuals.

The communist party, which has had continuous power since 1949, killed millions during the <<cultural-revolution>>. Surely they must be banned, no?

But the CCP has changed so much since those days, <<ciro-santilli>> hears you say.

Ciro agrees. And <<flg-changed,so has Falun Gong>>.

See also: "thoughtcrime" from <<nineteen-eighty-four>>.

Or if you like shitty movies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)[Minority Report (2002)].

[[aum-shinrikyo-thoughtcrime]]
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfTJV-8rtxE review of the https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0241146/[A (1998)] documentary film about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo[Aum Shinrikyo] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/奥姆真理教[奥姆真理教]) Japanese cult that made the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack[Tokyo subway sarin attack] in 1995. As mentioned at <<flg-cult>>, Ciro Santilli does consider Falun Gong a peaceful cult, unlike Aum. But even then, Ciro is against the loss of rights of Aum members that were never convicted of any crime, and were possibly also not aware of any crimes that were committed, as shown in this documentary.
video::SfTJV-8rtxE[youtube,height=400,width=600]

[[movement-x-tells-people-to-do-something-bad]]
==== Movement X tells people to do something bad, therefore the movement should be banned (运动X告诉人们做坏事，因此运动应该被禁止)

E.g. kill.

Yes, convincing someone to do something bad is as bad as doing it yourself of course, and must be forbidden.

Now proceed to prove that FLG made and will continue making people do bad things, going through:

* <<flg-witness>>
* <<flg-changed>>

[[tiananmen-square-self-immolation-incident]]
===== Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident (天安门自焚事件, 2001)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_self-immolation_incident
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/天安门自焚事件

This has been one of the major anti-Falun Gong propaganda pieces by the CCP, and one of the most refuted by Falun Gong propaganda even as of 2020.

<<ciro-santilli>> believes that:

* as usual from the pre-Internet age, we will never know the truth for sure, because China has <<censorship,no freedom of the press>>, and <<censorship-makes-no-one-trust-your-country,no one believes anything that the Chinese government says>>
* it is possible that they were Falun Gong believers. What would expect from <<flg-important,banning a 70 million person religion>>?
* it is very unlikely that they had approval or instructions from <<li-hongzhi>>. Li Hongzhi's literature maintains that suicide is very bad for you, e.g.: from 2003 <<flg-canon,canon>> https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/20030420L.html
+
____
Question: Some people can't give up Dafa, but also can't let go of their humanness. On the surface they are cultivating and doing some Fa-rectification things, but they are in fact stirring up trouble and creating disturbances, with some even committing suicide or being gay. What will become of these people? Will they go to the dimension of demons? And what will happen to those who stick up for them?

Teacher: I know about all of that. Unless I have absolutely no choice I don't want to expel them, so I'm observing and watching these things. It's best that these people, if they want to do themselves justice, wake up quickly--wake up quickly! If you're determined to do that, then tell Dafa disciples about the things you've done, and that could help. Time is running short. I'm really worried about you. Don't take Master's mercy so lightly. The Fa has standards.
____
+
and from 1998 canon https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/19980329L.html
+
____
Many people who are capable of cultivating get sucked into them, and some of them engage in suicide - it's a mess
____
* maybe people should be allowed to choose how they want to die, see also:
** <<flg-medication>>
** <<honour-suicides-in-chinese-history>>

[[honour-suicides-in-chinese-history]]
====== Honour suicides in Chinese history (中国历史上的荣誉自杀, Qu Yuan, 屈原, Wu Zixu, 伍子胥)

As https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Suicide_in_China&oldid=992138770#History[mentioned on Wikipedia], China has a long history of suicide for altruistic/moral/honour reasons in Confucian tradition, some of which are still celebrated to this day.

The <<analects>> paragraph <<analects-translation-by-robert-eno-2015,15.9>> says:

____
The Master said, The gentleman who is resolute and ren does not seek to live on at the expense of ren, and there are times when he will sacrifice his life to complete ren.
____

<<mencius-book>> paragraph <<mencius-translation-by-robert-eno-2016,paragraph 6A.10>> says:

____
I love to eat fish; I also love to eat bear paws. If I can't have both, I will forego the fish and eat the bear paws. I love life; I also love right. If I can't have both, I will forego life and choose to do right. Life is truly something I love, it is just that there is something else I love more, and so I can't hold on to life by devious means. And death is truly something I hate, it is just that there is something I hate more than death, and so there are dangers I will not avoid.

If a man loves nothing more than life, then won't he use whatever means are required to hold onto it? If a man hates nothing more than death, then won't he use whatever means are required to avoid danger? Yet there are things men won't do in order to avoid danger and live, and from this we know that there are things men love more than life and hate more than death. It is not just worthy men who have such feelings, all men have them; worthies are simply those who do not lose them.
____

Notable historical figures who committed suicides are are still celebrated to this day include:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qu_Yuan[Qu Yuan] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/屈原[屈原], 340-278 BC), is celebrated in the <<dragon-boat-festival>>, the third most important festival in modern China.
+
He committed suicide by drowning himself in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miluo_River[Miluo River], modern <<hubei>>, while holding a rock, after his country's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_(state)[Chu] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/楚国[楚国])) capital was taken by the Qin enemies during the <<warring-states-period>>.
+
He is a symbol of patriotism respected to this day.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Zixu[Wu Zixu] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/伍子胥[伍子胥], ???-484 BC)

These sound exactly like examples that <<xi-dada>> would want his army to keep in mind: ultimate sacrifice for the motherland.

[[flg-political]]
=== People from movement X are only in it for political power (X运动的人只是为了政治权力)

For every desire of the masses, there will be amoral representatives that will step to use that power.

Still, those representatives cannot gain power if there is no backing desire from society.

The only advantage of <<richer,democracy>>, is that those representatives have to pretend harder to do things for that group to retain their power.

Falun Gong believers obviously have the right to do politics, just like any other person, and Ciro greatly encourages this.

But Ciro does not like that Falun Gong tends to not call itself a political force, when it clearly is. But full disclosure is not a legal obligation, and many many media outlets don't really disclose their obvious political connections. See also: <<flg-transparent>>.

Falun Gong directly contacts Government officials, http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/a25124-European-Falun-Gong-Practitioners-held-an-Anti-torture-Exhibition-during-the-European-Union-Meeting-in-France.html#.XyHSa2OYWV4[demonstrates in front of government buildings] and <<flg-trump,supports Trump>>, how can that not be politics?!?! Just call it for what it is, and no one will be able to criticize you for it!

<<li-hongzhi>> directly says that FLG should not be involved in politics in <<flg-canon>>, e.g. https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/jjyz52.htm[]:

____
Never get involved in politics, nor interfere with state affairs'.
____

But at the same, he also greatly encourages <<falun-gong-media>>, which obviously a political influence method. As usual, everything in Falun Gong is explained in an indirect roundabout way.

Other related canon mentions https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2003/3/21/33575.html "Explaining the Fa During the 2003 Lantern Festival at the U.S. West Fa Conference":

____
Question: When elections were held in our district, there were people who went to help a few congressional candidates that supported Dafa. But some people thought we shouldn't get ourselves involved in politics, and that we shouldn't rely on ordinary people to do things for Dafa. Is that understanding correct?

Teacher: It's correct in principle, but for this specific matter you should look at it this way. If you say Dafa disciples can't get involved in ordinary society's politics, I wouldn't say that's 100% correct. What I told you was that Dafa doesn't get involved in politics. And a lot of our Dafa disciples work in politics, that's their job. So if there's a government election, should you take part in it? If you take part in it and cast your vote, well then you've gotten involved in politics. A Dafa disciple cultivating in the ordinary society means that you try your best to cultivate while conforming to the ordinary society, and then there won't be a problem. You, too, are a member of the ordinary society. And the existence of the ordinary society is necessary for Dafa, for the cosmos, and for sentient beings. We can only help maintain it and can't disrupt it. When you're supposed to vote, just go vote, that's not a problem. If you say that a certain Congressman is your personal friend, and you'd like to help him do something, then of course there might be things that involve elections and you'd be doing volunteer work—that doesn't matter. But our Dafa as a whole doesn't get involved in politics, and we can't do anything political in the name of Dafa. For Dafa disciples, validating the Fa should be the priority, though.

The last time there was an election in Taiwan, I had a veteran practitioner call the person in charge of the Taiwan Dafa Association and make it clear to the public that Dafa Associations take no stance on elections. If an individual practitioner wants to support someone, that's his personal business and it doesn't represent Dafa. There were Dafa disciples supporting both of the parties. The Falun Dafa Association has no political opinion regarding any party's election, and it doesn't get involved. As individual practitioners you can support whoever you'd like. That's how it works.
____

The last paragraph is really great, as it indicates how Li's communication works. His top tenants are known, and their word is as good as the master's.

https://en.falundafa.org/eng/lectures/20040412L.html[] also has some good quotes:

____
Question: During Taiwan's presidential election, some students' human attachments got stirred up. Was it a test arranged by the old forces? What's the right way for us to handle this?

Teacher: Even if the sky were to fall, a cultivator's righteous thoughts would stay unshaken--that is cultivation, and that is remarkable. (Applause) A cultivator is not attached to anything in this world. Dafa disciples' cultivation takes a different form today. In cultivation you do your best out in the world to conform to ordinary society, you have normal jobs in ordinary society, and you have your families, jobs, and all that--you are closely tied to society. With the Taiwan election, some students thought a certain person was pretty good and so they wanted to vote for him, while others thought a different person was pretty good and wanted to vote for that one. People have their own, different views, and there's nothing wrong with that. A person's own actions out in society don't represent Dafa. But you can't be attached to those things the way ordinary people are.

Whoever you vote for, I can't, as your Master, say that you're wrong, nor do I get involved in those things. That's because the path I ask you to take has you cultivate in ordinary society. Cultivators can only benefit a society. You cultivate in ordinary society but you don't steer human society in one direction or another.

So for each student, it's fine for you to vote as an individual for whomever you want. It's just that you can't be too attached. But through the persecution against Dafa disciples in Mainland China, Dafa disciples have seen through something, and so some are thinking, "Whoever is close to the evil that's persecuting us, I won't vote for him." (Applause) And as your Master I have no objection to that either. (Audience laughs, applauds) Those are the students' own thoughts, and as your Master I haven't told you who to vote for. Still less will I tell you to take any group action, and that's not allowed. (Audience laughs)
____

.https://youtu.be/ArfGyo6HQ_E?t=1175 Ciro really liked what https://www.holycross.edu/academics/programs/religious-studies/faculty/mathew-schmalz[Doctor Matthew N. Schmalz] said on this VICE documentary about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyung_Jin_Moon[Hyung Jin Moon]'s and his https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_movement[Unification movement] ("the Moonies" split-off religion. "I think that any new religion needs a constituency. And especially for a group that is new, that is relatively small, making connections with other groups that might have similar commitments is something that can be quite productive if you are a leader of a new religion". As long as everyone plays the democracy game through democracy rules, peace tends to be maintained, and it is easier for multiple different beliefs to coexist. Falun Gong has obviously gone in this political direction, and that is a positive sign about the religion.
video::ArfGyo6HQ_E[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=1175]

[[flg-trump]]
==== Falun Gong supports Donald (Trump, 法轮功支持特朗普)

<<ciro-santilli>> believes without non-circumstantial evidence that the huge majority of Falun Gong believers strongly supports Trump.

Ciro feels that Falun Gong's support of Trump is a fundamental religious issue to the group.

Falun Gong seems to believe that Trump is perfect and that everything that he says is true and good. He is essentially a supernatural force of good, as well shown at: <<you-are-not-alone-by-tony-chen-music>>. And his opponents, e.g. Biden and the Left, are the opposite.

Like everything else concrete, it is not clear if <<li-hongzhi>> has directly supported this or not.

Ciro feels without proof however that it is extremely likely that he has given very clear private directives to his top tenants to support Trump, notably to the heads of the key <<falun-gong-media>> organizations.

And then this belief gets pumped endlessly through the Falun Gong media, which completely unilaterally praises and supports Trump and criticizes his opponents, so that all believers understand that this is Li Hongzhi's desire.

Edit: around 2021-05-15, this got published on <<minghui>>: https://www.minghui.org/mh/articles/2021/5/18/大纪元新唐人媒体法会讲法-425888.html[]. It is not on <<flg-canon,falundafa.org>> yet, but is extremely likely to be uploaded later and can already be consiered canon. The title is "Fa Teachings at the <<epoch-times>>/<<ntdtv>> media meeting", and it contains the first, unumbiguous support of Trump done in Canon. Although such support took a long time to come out publicly in canon, <<flg-transparent,which ciro-santilli condems>>, it was a huge positive step forward towards transparency, as it makes Falun Gong's pre-exising but unannounced religious support for Donald trump publicly official. The key quote on Google Translate is:

____
Everyone knows that the former president of the United States could not be re-elected, and he was taken down by improper means. I only talk about this phenomenon. Isn't it a manifestation of the current state of society? Everyone knows that the former president wants to talk about traditions and restore traditions. What he has to do is to change the moral quality of people and society in a better direction, and to restore society to a better social state. Is he going against the current heavenly principle? Because God's law is not working. Is he against the trend of this society? He is going against the current, and he wants to suffocate the current. If it's a country, maybe he can do it; what about the entire human society, it's too difficult. So, if the entire universe is like this, can it be intercepted? Unstoppable. So, those gods who took him down and those bad gods in the old universe were as timid as they had stolen things in their hearts. They knew what he was doing was good. Do not you know? all know. Although those gods are corrupt, at least he still understands these things
____

which therefore clearly says Trump is a manifestation of supernatural forces of good, and also clearly says that the 2020 American election was in fact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election[stolen by the Democrats as per Donald Trump's accusations].

It could have been even more direct, but <<ciro-santilli>> considers this more than direct enough. A Brazillian saying comes to mind: "Para bom entendedor, meia palavra basta" (For the Connoisseur/Expert, half a word is enough). This was notably used as part of an relentless advertisement campain when Ciro was young (certainly too young to drink) for the overly-long-named beer brand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasil_Kirin[Schincariol], suggesting that you could just call is "schin", e.g. to order it at a bar. Sample ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-UWr1RIQU[]. Anyways, back to Falun Gong, when it is the word of <<li-hongzhi,Living God himself>>, even a quarter-word is enough I guess.

Prior to that, the most direct public suggestion we can find that Li Hongzhi directly supported Trump was in 2020-11-08 https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/20/11/8/n12534746.htm when the <<epoch-times>> published a poem by <<li-hongzhi>> which Ciro believes is clearly directly supporting Trump, since it was released just after Trump was announced to have lost the presidential elections, amidst claims of electoral fraud under investigation, which Falun Gong media fully and completely supported. The official translation can be found in <<flg-canon>> https://en.falundafa.org/eng/articles/20201108A.html[]:

____
On the General Election

In this majestic universe, the communist devil is making trouble +
Fraud and corruption are harming a great nation +
All the machinations make people only more despondent +
When will justice be upheld and our conscience restored? +

Hongzhi Li +
November 8, 2020
____

To be completely fair, Trump has been vocal about China's threat way before <<covid,COVID>>, and correctly so in Ciro's opinion, and therefore is a much needed ally of the Falun Gong movement, and to anyone that opposes China's threat, like Ciro does.

Furthermore, Ciro does believe that there might be a Democrat bias to media, and that certainly <<hate-speech,social media like Twitter should never ever censor any political statements as it has done for Trump>>.

And of course, so long as those pro-Trump campaigns respect the laws of the country, Falun Gong is free to do it and must not be interfered with. As if other major American media didn't have political agendas: <<usa-based-media-bias>>.

This is exactly the same, in fact, as to how <<flg-religion,religious affiliation>> has a huge impact in how the average American votes: https://theconversation.com/how-strong-a-role-does-religion-play-in-us-elections-133224[].

It seems that Trump's immigration policies have turned Asian Americans towards the democrat opposition however as of 2019: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/13/18308137/asian-american-voters-immigration-democrats-donald-trump[].

One saving point of the republicans for Asians is the opposition to university quotas instance, which many Asians feel blocks their high performing kids from top schools for less deserving students. This is suggested for example at: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/yang-asian-americans-affirmative-action/605917/ "Opposition to affirmative action was pulling Asians toward the GOP. Then Yang's campaign began to gather momentum."

Examples:

* NBC News claims that the <<epoch-times>> has donated to Trump propaganda: $1.5 million https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/trump-qanon-impending-judgment-day-behind-facebook-fueled-rise-epoch-n1044121
* after the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election[2020 United States presidential election], <<falun-gong-media>> such as <<epoch-times>> was one of the very few medias to not immediately dismiss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election[Trump's accusations of electoral fraud], as baseless e.g. on 2020-12-12 https://web.archive.org/web/20201212014230/https://www.theepochtimes.com/ the front page read "Election outcome unclear amid legal challenges", at which point most had been shot down. And earlier their editorial had clarified https://web.archive.org/web/20201107223813/https://www.theepochtimes.com/[] "Why The Epoch Times Won't Call the Presidential Race Until All Challenges Are Resolved".
** 2020-12-16 consider this sample <<ntdtv>> screenshot of the latest videos published at the time: https://archive.vn/Sxn8m[], where it can be seen that about 80-90% of the videos are supporting Trump's electoral fraud claims.
+
While Ciro agrees that reporting such events impartially is important and has merit, the fact that so few medias took the lawsuits seriously at all is still indicative of their strong Trump support.
+
Ciro is also extremely opposed to censorship of such viewpoints, as done by YouTube, as mentioned at <<fake-news>>, when they started taking down any videos that upheld the electoral fraud viewpoint.
* <<me-and-li-by-ben-hurley-2017>> says how after his conversion to Falun Gong:
+
____
My social beliefs had transformed from those typical of a left-leaning family to take on a very conservative hue.
____

Other election/politics related <<flg-canon>> mentions https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2019/6/2/177872.html[Fa Teaching at the 2019 New York Fa Conference]:

____
Question: Misleading news is everywhere in this Internet age, and it's often hard to tell real news from fake. In the upcoming Taiwan and U.S. general elections in 2020, will fake news cloud people's judgment?

Master: Degenerate things are common in this troubled world, and it's hard to accomplish good things. That's how things are in a troubled world. Many people didn't expect Trump to be elected in the last U.S. election, but he was. Some people believe that things are supposed to go a certain way, but then they turn out otherwise. I have always said that divine beings are in control of human affairs, and that it is they who have the say. But if I speak too much about it or get into the specifics, it might negatively impact our saving people, so I won't go into it.
____

As usual, Hongzhi beats round the bush, as per <<different-levels-of-truth>>. Ciro feels it <<flg-transparent,would be better for Falun Gong if he just publicly said that believers must support Trump>>.

One wonders how Falun Gong views Trump's ideology of "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_Access_Hollywood_tape[grabbing them by the pussy]". But sure, that was in 2005, he must have converted to Good since.

Analysis of Trumps electoral fraud claims:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election
* 2020-11-2020 https://www.ft.com/content/20b114b5-5419-493b-9923-a918a2527931 "Lawsuit tracker: Donald Trump's legal battle runs into repeated dead ends" gives the precise names of several of the cases
* 2021-01-05 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-lawsuits-election-results-2020-11 "Trump and Republican officials have won zero out of at least 42 lawsuits they've filed since Election Day" gives an update on several of the cases at that date
* 2021-03-31 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-trump-statue-idUSKBN2BN0RU "Be at peace, meditate, Trump Buddha statue designer tells former president" shows Trump Buddha statues by Hong Jinshi. This could be a huge hit with the Falun Gong community!!!

[[you-are-not-alone-by-tony-chen-music]]
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWjFeo0BgU You Are Not Alone by Tony Chen Music (陳東音樂, 2020) is a timeless classic devotional Trump support song. by Tony who https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZ-jCiXCpI[is a Falun Gong believer]. This is consistent with Ciro's understanding of FLG's view of the world, where <<falun-gong-believes-that-the-ccp-is-literally-a-manifestation-of-real-devils>> ("I see the true light - You are the Chosen One to fight the Red Demon") and therefore Trump is the manifestation of a supernatural force oof Good. The Chinese version is even more open about Trump's God-like status: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZrVbX8jV_o[], and contains perls such as (official translation) "I see hope - you are the Chosen One to save the world" and "Trump, Trump, you are not alone! Gods and Buddhas are here with you!". The extensive use of Trump's slogan "Make America great again" is also in line with Falun Gong's belief that the world was Good before, but has become Evil today. <<epoch-times>> made a https://www.epochtimes.com/b5/18/2/1/n10105396.htm[profile of Tony in 2018].
video::WaWjFeo0BgU[youtube,height=400,width=600]

=== Does Ciro Santilli believe in the allegations of human rights violations done to Falun Gong believers?

Besides the obvious prohibition of their most fundamental belief, so e.g. being tortured.

Let's just focus on the evidence:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CedVnJOgwg4 "Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps" by "FOX 11 Los Angeles" published May 21, 2019. Names mentioned: Fuquan Yin,

[[flg-organ-harvesting]]
==== Does Ciro Santilli believe in the allegations of organ harvesting made by Falun Gong believers?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/對中國共產黨摘取法輪功學員及良心犯器官的指控

In short: Ciro believes that it has happened to many people.

Long version follows.

It is obviously very hard to prove and quantify it definitely, much like it was hard to prove the Holocaust: bodies were cremated, and bribes were paid.

Even if we had a video showing the whole process, showing the whole money flow from the donor to the prison guard, it would still be hard to quantify it, so I do have some room for doubt in this opinion.

But consider the following, which is based on what Ciro has heard.

Even Chinese officials have admitted that in the past, if the body of the executed person is not claimed by family, then the organs can be extracted even without the consent of the prisoner:

* 2014-12-04 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-30324440 "China to stop harvesting executed prisoners' organs"
* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/china-still-using-executed-prisoners-organs-transplants-vatican
* https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-face-of-criticism-china-has-been-cleaning-up-its-organ-transplant-industry/2017/09/14/d689444e-e1a2-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html

Perhaps now that they claim that there is a large voluntary organ donor database, then this has stopped or been reduced, but let's focus on that period when the extractions were widely done.

From this, even though China does not publish execution statistics, we can imagine that a large part of the organs come from prisoners sentenced to death.

Then, consider that a <<flg-important,70 million>> person religion was banned, leading to a huge influx of prisoners from that religion.

FLG followers are just de-facto criminals like any other, and so extracting their organs is also de-facto legal.

Also, people from that religion don't drink alcohol, smoke or take drugs, and their organs are of good quality.

Furthermore, FLG prisoners continue to not bow down to the government even in prison, e.g. by doing their <<flg-religion,Falun Gong meditation>>, which makes them clearly identifiable and dangerous to the system.

Finally, add to that mix the <<corruption,huge level of corruption found in dictatorships>>.

Don't you think, then, that it is extremely likely that it has happened many times that such people have been selected to be executed earlier than others on average, due to the monetary value of their organs?

Bibliography:

* https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6 (https://web.archive.org/web/20191118135832/https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6[archive]) "Analysis of official deceased organ donation data casts doubt on the credibility of China's organ transplant reform" by Matthew P. Robertson, Raymond L. Hinde and Jacob Lavee published at "BMC Medical Ethics" which is part of Springer Nature in 14 November 2019
* The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China's Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ethan Gutmann, 2014
** <https://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Killings-Harvesting-Solution-Dissident/dp/161614940X>
** <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Gutmann#The_Slaughter:_Mass_Killings,_Organ_Harvesting,_and_China's_Secret_Solution_to_Its_Dissident_Problem>

Related:

* 2020-11-29 (not of prisoners) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-55097424 "Chinese doctors jailed for illegal organ harvesting"

.https://youtu.be/0Jorm1di7uA?t=700[] Asian boss street inverview with several South Korean people asking how they see China. The only positive view is an old man who received an organ transplant from someone sentenced to death. On <<reddit>> at: https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/pve1lr/koreans_interviewed_about_their_views_on_china/[].
video::0Jorm1di7uA[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=700]

===== 2018 China Tribunal

2018 https://chinatribunal.com/

This is a mock tribunal, i.e. one without any power of law, and was of course initially lobbied/organized brought up by FLG: https://endtransplantabuse.org/

However, Ciro Santilli believes that none of the lawyers/jury members are Falun Gong believers, and that they are trying to honestly decide if there is enough evidence or not for organ harvesting in China.

They also have non-FLG witnesses.

Whether you believe in their partiality or not, I highly recommend watching some of what the witnesses, which I find very convincing and informative:

* https://youtu.be/oW3IaaXWE8s?t=7225 Swedish man who spent several years in prison in China

A notable precursor to mock tribunals is the link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Tribunal[Russel Tribunal].

Bibliography:

* Dr. Enver Tothi, has spoken openly about his organ harvesting activities in the 1990s in several tribunals in Europe
** 2020 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/surgeon-who-harvested-organs-slaughtered-21040274 "Surgeon who harvested organs of slaughtered dissident now London Uber driver"
** 2019 in EU parliament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n-9n897jIo
** 2017 Him speaking in : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY at Ireland's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY[House of the Oireachtas]

[[things-ciro-santilli-dislikes-about-falun-gong]]
=== Things Ciro Santilli dislikes about Falun Gong (三西猴不喜欢法轮功的事情)

But also as explaining why I don't think it justifies the ban.

This section also gives me more credibility as a balanced critic >:-)

* <<flg-religion,Falun Gong downplays the fact that they are a religion>>

[[flg-organized]]
==== Falun Gong downplays the fact that it is highly organized (法轮功淡化了它高度组织化的事实)

Many FLG practitioners claim that they are not at all organized, or that they have no political interest, and I truly believe that they mean it.

But it is obvious from the size of the <<falun-gong-media>>, namely:

* <<ntdtv>>
* <<epoch-times>> newspaper
* <<shen-yun>> dance troupe

that in practice they do have are a highly organized hierarchical structure, and very likely with <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> at the very top, e.g.:

* Shen Yun's 2018 libretto says that their Artistic Director and founder is "D.F." (likely an abbreviation for Da Fa, which is an abbreviation for Falun Gong Dafa, which is a full name of Falun Gong), with a picture of LHZ on top. It also amusingly says that D.F. is a "Distinguished Professor of Music and Dance at Fei Tian College in New York", which is likely where many of Shen Yun's dancers are trained, and therefore controlled by himself to a large extent. It's Falun Gong's dance-only-for-now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University[BYU].
* LHZ mentions NDTV, Epoch Times and Shen Yun extensively on his <<flg-canon>>. TODO link to source, this based on unintentionally overhearing to my family members reading it.

Furthermore, Falun Gong practitioners directly lobby foreign governments to take action against human rights abuses in China, e.g.:

* https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+MOTION+P7-RC-2013-0562+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN
* https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-court-cisco-must-be-held-accountable-aiding-chinas-human-rights-abuses

Like any other religion, they have all the right to take those actions, and it is definitely in their best interest, and perhaps in the best interest of the whole world, that they do so.

The only thing that annoys me is their lack of self perception on this matter: the large majority of Western people would definitely classify them as an organized political force after having observed their activities. When they say otherwise, they are hurting their own credibility.

[[flg-transparent]]
===== Falun Gong media is not transparent about its affiliation (法轮功媒体对其隶属关系不透明)

Agreed, and it is a point that hurts more than helps their cause.

This is very clearly put as well at "Front groups" of the <<orange-papers>>.

But the media is not legally obliged to state their affiliation.

And if that were the case, then we should force _all_ newspapers to start taking polls of how many employees follow which religion and support which political party, and then put that in their print.

But <<xinhua>> is learning well from this, e.g. <<new-china-tv>>.

[[flg-intolerance]]
==== Falun Gong dislikes several other groups like homosexuals and some other religions (法轮功不喜欢其他几个群体，如同性恋者和其他一些宗教)

Like most <<flg-religion,old religions>>, related: <<hate-speech>>.

<<flg-canon,Canon quote>> from https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/19980904L.html[]:

____
Question: Why is homosexuality considered immoral?

Teacher: Think about it, everyone: Is homosexuality human behavior? Heaven created man and woman. What was the purpose? To procreate future generations. A man being with a man, or a woman with a woman - it doesn't take much thought to know whether that's right or wrong. When minor things are done incorrectly, a person is said to be wrong. When major things are done incorrectly, it's a case of people no longer having the moral code of human beings, and then they are unworthy of being human.
____

<<ciro-santilli>> strongly disagrees with that view, because it is the type of thing that makes people feel bad for characteristics that they have, but cannot change.

Also, it is very hard to pass any kind of law that forces people not to be racist/discriminatory, because there is always the lingering question: what if they are right about a particular point?

Because clearly everyone has innate characteristics that make them better suited for certain activities than others, we when we select candidates for a job, we are basically discriminating amongst candidates.

Also any such law can have the opposite effect, acting as a justification for further hate.

You and I dislike certain personality traits without any logical reason.

Democracy dislikes dictators, and it is not necessarily rational.

See also:

* <<intolerance>>
* <<gay-rights>>

===== Falun Gong on races

<<li-hongzhi>> clearly classifies races as a metaphysical concept e.g. on <<flg-canon>> https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/19990502L.html[]:

____
Strictly speaking, Indians, Egyptians, Persians, the yellow race, the white race, and the black race are the six major races of the present Earth. All the other ones are mixed races.
____

Mixed race people seem to have some metaphysical defect/peculiarity, https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/1997L.html[]:

___
Question: What did you say last time that a person of mixed race has lost?

Teacher: He has lost the body that comes from the top down through to here. Let me put it this way: People of the yellow race have people of the yellow race up there, and people of the white race have people of the white race up there. He's lost this thread.
___

but they can still go to Heaven:

____
Question: Can a person of mixed race succeed in cultivation?

Teacher: Whether someone can cultivate and whether he can succeed in cultivation are all up to the person himself. If a person of mixed race can persist in cultivation, he can reach Consummation just the same. When he succeeds in cultivation his Primordial Spirit will return to wherever he came from.
____

[[flg-medication]]
==== Falun Gong believers are less likely to take necessary medication (法轮功信徒不太可能服用必要的药物)

Based on what <<ciro-santilli>> saw and heard, he does believe, without any clear statistical evidence, that it is very likely that it hs happened to in many cases that some Falun Gong believers refused to take modern medications and died of diseases that could be otherwise cured.

But consider the following:

* what matters are statistics. Maybe FLG people live longer than non FLG in average. But we will never have statistics because of censorship: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/27529/have-many-falun-gong-practitioners-forgone-medical-treatment-and-died-of-treatab
* maybe people should be link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation[allowed to choose how they want to die], and not to take medication if they don't want to
+
As the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parks_and_Recreation[Parks and Recreation] caricaturally liberal character https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Swanson[Ron Swanson] puts it https://youtu.be/_UlNnETAZeI?t=48[about the United States]:
+
____
The whole point of this country is if you wanna eat garbage, balloon up to six hundred pounds and die of a heart attack at forty three, you can! You are free to do so. To me that's beautiful.
____
+
<<freedom-with-a-capital-f>> also comes to mind.
* maybe the number of people killed during persecution vastly outnumbers those who died because they would not take medication
* several <<flg-religion,religions>>, including <<christianity>> have miraculous cure claims. My impression is that claims were mostly notable in the old times apparently, likely because people noticed that Christians were still dying of all kinds of diseases like everyone else, no matter how devout!
* maybe the main reason why communists banned Falun Gong is the political threat it posed, but that a ban was unjustified given the situation. Christian crosses are being taken down as of 2016, have they stopped taking their medications as well? See also <<rule-of-law>>.
* maybe many of those people would also have died soon even if they had taken medication
* maybe not all Falun Gong believers thought that it was wise to stop taking medication. But their religion was banned anyway. Who can agree and follow all the innumerable prescriptions of any religious or legal system? See also: <<flg-thoughtcrime>>.
* all the following also reduce people's lifespan:
+
--
** riding motorcycles vs. cars/buses
** smoking
** moving to a poor country to do charity there
** eating fast food
--
+
Forbidding them also has huge humanitarian costs (more expensive vehicles, creation of a black market, ...). So why not forbid them as well?

Especially In the beginning, Falun Gong did put a lot of emphasis on its health benefits, just <<zhong-gong,like all the other contemporaneous Qi Gong practices>>, and it is likely that especially many in the first generation of believers do believe it more than others.

For example, the main initial public announcement of Falun Gong was at a <<history-of-falun-gong,Health Exposition in Beijing>>.

In <<flg-canon>> itself, this is not super explicit and emphasised as far as Ciro can see. Zhuan Falun https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_74.htm[] has a chapter entitled "On the Issue of Healing Illnesses", that contains:

____
 Let us talk about the most common illnesses, like tumors, infections or osteoproliferation etc., found in the human body. In another space, a very deep space, there lies an evil intelligent entity.
____

and the general very beaty-around-the-bush suggestion that if you do master Falun Gong fully, you will be healthy. But with the usual disclaimer that "you have to become a master", and since "there are no graduates", no one is ever a master for sure, and as usual "you don't get the promised goodies", as as mentioned at: <<orange-papers>>.

https://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/mgjf.htm contains some more direct quotes that suggest that you can take medicine, but you have to try and bear the pain first, and if you can't, it's a sign that you haven't practiced Falun Gong well enough:

____
So when you take medicine now you're killing this sickness or the virus at the surface. Medicine can truly kill viruses at the surface. Yet a practitioner's gong[7] is automatically destroying viruses and karma. But as soon as medicine kills the surface virus that has seeped over from other dimensions, the virus—karma—over on the other side will know, since everything is alive, and it will stop coming over. Then you feel that you've recovered because you took the medicine. But let me tell you that it nonetheless accumulates over there. Life after life human beings are accumulating this stuff. When the accumulation reaches a certain extent, the person becomes incurable and when he dies he's totally destroyed. He loses his life—forever loses his life. That's how horrifying it is. So here I've explained to you the relationship. It's not that people aren't allowed to take medicine. When an everyday person gets sick he definitely needs medical treatment.

But how do we cultivators deal with it? Aren't we purifying your body? Like the annual rings of a tree, there is karma at the very core, and at every layer, life after life, of your body. When you practice cultivation, I keep pushing this karma outward from the center; I push, and push, and push, and push until I completely push the karma out for you. And not all of this can go through the surface of our bodies. You wouldn't be able to bear it if all of it were to go through the surface of your body. Only a portion of it comes out through the surface. But you still feel that you're suddenly getting sick, you find it terribly uncomfortable and painful, can't bear it, regard yourself as an everyday person, and go take medicine. Then you can go ahead and take medicine, as we've never said that everyday people can't take medicine. We only say that your enlightenment quality isn't up to par and that you didn't pass this test well.
____

Ciro does however believe that newer generations believe in this much less, notably because the first believer generation is all basically old or dead, and soon will be entirely dead. This might also have been de-emphasised to reduce the bullshit aspects and help the international spread of Falun Gong. Not even Falun Gong believers are that blind. And this perfectly mimics the beginning of Christianism, where the first generations gave much more emphasis to miraculous cures.

<<me-and-li-by-ben-hurley-2017>> has an anecdote on this, which Ciro feels sounds believable:

[[me-and-li-tumor]]
____
I think it was Lynn's* death that finally made me realise it was time to leave. I'd seen the writing on the wall about a year prior when I saw her at a yearly "Fa conference" for believers of Falun Gong, otherwise known as Falun Dafa, to exchange experiences and grow spiritually together. An executive assistant at a Queensland valuation firm, I'd gotten to know her over the years in various events as a warm and level-headed lady who had time for everyone. But I'd noticed she had developed a bulge on the side of her head and I was trying not to look at it when I talked to her. I saw, or at least I believed I saw, some pain in her smile. She was probably questioning herself over and over again what "attachments" she hadn't let go of that were causing this sickness to spread through her body and endanger her life. I wanted to tell her to just go to a hospital, although I wasn't at this stage resolute enough in my gradual return to logic. Another part of me feared that by looking at it I was acknowledging it — something you don't do with illnesses in Falun Gong because Master Li Hongzhi teaches that his pupils don't get illnesses. He can cure you but only if you don't have any loopholes in your belief in him and his teachings. Some people with solid beliefs can actually die due to others around them having flaws in their thinking, Li says. Just thinking the wrong way is perilous when you're a Falun Gong practitioner.

I later heard through the grapevine of Lynn's death. The cancer went into her brain and she passed away in extreme pain, probably believing to the end that it was her fault she was in this awful predicament. In a way, I guess it was.
____

and more interesting anecdotes follow, see source.

And Ciro has felt this first hand with his <<wife,mother-in-law>>. Whenever she has a health worry, first she tries to hide it. But then she casually mentions it without much thought because she speaks all the time the poor lady, may she be blessed. And then, when Ciro says: OK, let's try and treat it, even for trivial things that might have simple treatments, she immediately smiles a compassionate smile of "I'm a Falun Gong believer, I don't need that". This makes Ciro really mad. He tries to not show it, because he thinks people should be able to choose how they die. But Li promises the powers of <<flg-cross-dimensional-vision,remote, cross dimensional and past/future vision>> to some believers, and yet, blinds some of them to the obvious fact that they are aging, and, slowly but surely, their own bodies are starting to fail, like everyone else's will at one point.

It is also interesting to note how the Chinese government itself supported Falun Gong and <<zhong-gong,other Qi Gong practices>> for their health benefits, which is why they grew so large in the first place. <<li-hongzhi>> was even <<history-of-falun-gong,awarded prizes and recognized as a Qi Gong master by state backed organizations in 1992 and 1993>>. And the CCP still has a tendency to support certain non-scientific traditional practices: <<support-for-non-scientific-traditional-practices>>.

[[freedom-with-a-capital-f]]
.https://youtu.be/kIpaDW3RwtY?t=244 one random thing ex-KGB spy undercover in the USA Jack Barsky mentioned in this BuzzFeed Multiplayer interview stuck to his mind: "The one thing that you have here, that I believe cannot be found anywhere else in the world is called Freedom, with a capital F". If people want to die in a certain way, or believe that some bullshit will cure them, they should be allowed. Natural selection will take care of the rest.
video::kIpaDW3RwtY[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=244]

See also: <<honour-suicides-in-chinese-history>>.

[[falun-gongs-view-of-epidemics]]
===== Falun Gong's view of epidemics (法轮功的流行病观)