README.adoc

Then have to appeal and wait for moderators to evaluate it.

This happened for example at: https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-I-walked-around-Beijing-with-a-t-shirt-that-said-freedom-of-speech-is-pretty-great/answer/Ciro-Santilli (see also <<t-shirt>>).

Ciro appealed in 2020-03-10 and the answer was reinstated on day later, but by then the question was already not being suggested as much to readers, and the other wumao answers (which criticize the USA rather than answering the question about China).

While there is some probability that the answers themselves are not wumaos, their upvoters almost certainly are and must be investigated.

Other shitty aspects of Quora include:

* automatically add random topics that you don't care about to your suggestions, with no easy way to prevent that.
* questions cannot have more than one sentence. There used to be a question body, but it was replaced with a "link for context". Ridiculous.

As a result, on the few occasions that Ciro posts on Quora, all content will also be mirrored here. Ciro's China Quora answers include:

* https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-if-I-walked-around-Beijing-with-a-t-shirt-that-said-freedom-of-speech-is-pretty-great/answer/Ciro-Santilli[What would happen if I walked around Beijing with a t-shirt that said "freedom of speech is pretty great"?] (https://archive.is/PxjJA[archive]) see also: <<t-shirt>>
* https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-net-worth-of-Xi-Jinping/answer/Ciro-Santilli[What is the net worth of Xi Jinping?] see also: <<panama-papers>>

[[ptt]]
==== PTT Bulletin Board System 批踢踢實業坊

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System | https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/批踢踢

Popular <<taiwan,Taiwanese>> forum system and server from 1995, pre HTML, works from telnet terminal, so likely very programmer heavy, and obviously anti-CCP, as of 2020 often shows <<falun-gong>> ads.

Ciro Santilli's appearances on PTT:

* 2020-01-31: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1580484253.A.37A.html "stackoverflow菁英卻痛恨中國" by https://pttweb.tw/user/Eric0605/["Eric0605 (我還有點餓)"] on the Gossiping board
* 2017-06-19 https://pttweb.tw/s/2K9zV "Ciro Santilli <<the-709-crackdown,709大抓捕>> 六四事件 法轮" on the Gossiping board
* 2016-10-03 https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Soft_Job/M.1478104872.A.916.html "Github也出現網軍了嗎?" by gocreating on the Soft_Job board

Archaic, fucking impossible to learn how to use. Ciro Santilli hasn't managed yet, so if you want a reply from him, open an issue on this repo instead.

TODO: can anyone comment, without having a Taiwanese university address? This suggests no: https://www.reddit.com/r/taiwan/comments/1etbvb/anyone_on_pttcc_advice_suggestions/ Also asked at:

* https://www.quora.com/unanswered/Can-you-comment-on-the-PTT-Bulletin-Board-System-at-ptt-cc-from-Taiwan-without-working-or-studying-at-a-Taiwanese-university
* https://github.com/cirosantilli/china-dictatorship/issues/92

Normal people see it on a web viewer hosted on: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/index.html

However it is fucking impossible to web archive that web interface because there is a cookie I'm 18-years-old confirmation before the first connection.

This shows how to connect for the first time: https://www.ptt.cc/index.firstbbs.html

One attempt is:

....
luit -encoding big5 telnet ptt.cc
....

But the main page says:

"本站目前暫停開放新帳號註冊。" "This site is currently suspended for new account registration."

And you try `new` it says: "目前無法註冊帳號![按任意鍵繼續]" "Account cannot be registered at this time."

OK, ptt2 went further:

....
luit -encoding big5 telnet ptt2.cc
....

Then there is a registration process that seem to require you to prove that you work at Taiwanese university, but not sure it is mandatory to post.

But I couldn't find Gossiping there either, which is the only board that matters, so not sure it is on this server.

[[christianity]]
=== Christianity 基督教

The commies are not a fan. But as someone once told me: the commies are not a fan of a bunch of things!

As mentioned at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China there are only a few state approved churches under total CCP control, and the others are forbidden. For example one of them is called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Patriotic_Catholic_Association[Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association]! God and CCP on the same sentence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII[Pope Pius XII] excommunicated people from that organization who were appointing new Bishops!

* 2018-12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWApdCNdik "100 Christians detained in China crackdown" published by CNN
* 2018-09 Vatican Christian pope makes deal with China
+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–Holy_See_relations#September_2018_Holy_See–China_Agreement
+
.<<rebel-pepper>> 2018-09 cartoon showing the Pope with a Christian cross containing the Hammer and Sickle communist symbol, in reference to one of the accords that the Vatican struck with the Chinese government. https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/vatican-china-cartoon-09282018102133.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20180930134934im_/https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/vatican-china-cartoon-09282018102133.html/180927RFA-vatican-china.jpg/@@images/190bb54e-d6be-4c98-9599-b4a88aa6b959.jpeg[height=400]
* 2018-01 Chinese authorities demolish Christian mega-church "Golden Lampstand" sparking fears of religious persecution
** https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-mega-church-in-crackdown-2018-1
+
.China's Golden Lampstand Church being demolished. https://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-authorities-demolish-christian-mega-church-in-crackdown-2018-1[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191013080937if_/https://image.businessinsider.com/5a572ca3a75e205e138b4b5f?width=1300&format=jpeg&auto=webp[height=400]
* 2016 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/27/world/asia/china-zhejiang-christians-pastor-crosses.html pastor 14 years jail
* 2015 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/christians-in-china-feel-full-force-of-authorities-repression/2015/12/23/7dd0ec5a-a736-11e5-b596-113f59ee069a_story.html

.<<rebel-pepper>> 2018-09 cartoon showing Jesus and the Apostles in the Last Supper being arrested by CCP guards. https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/china-crackddown-Christianity-cartoon-09072018150421.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191012075042im_/https://www.rfa.org/english/cartoons/china-crackddown-Christianity-cartoon-09072018150421.html/180907RFA_thelastsupperinChina_1000.jpg/@@images/ac0553ed-a46d-43f6-98d8-288ce76901af.jpeg[height=400]

.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Hongtu[Zhang Hongtu] cartoon showing <<mao-zedong,Mao Zedong>> and other communist officials at the Last Supper instead of Jesus and the Apostles. https://musicandculture.blogspot.com/2010/03/massive-last-supper-parodies-post.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191107094724if_/http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_W8pwMnZMNuQ/S5YAJmo1Q1I/AAAAAAAAC_A/YKRCKXUiSAM/s1600/meal.jpg[height=400]

[[life-of-brian]]
.https://youtu.be/wthHB3iTC7M?t=556 Nazi Jew deleted scene from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python%27s_Life_of_Brian[Monty Python's Life of Brian] (1979). This movie was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdU_6jUQI9s[almost banned in Britain at the time due to lobbying by Christian groups]. If you want to stop <<christianity>>, don't put them in jail like the <<dictatorship,dictators>>. Do it the same way you stop dictators: with <<funny,comedy>>. Otherwise, the dictators remain in power, and <<intolerance,next person in jail, will be you>>.
video::wthHB3iTC7M[youtube,width=600,height=400,start=556]

[[eastern-lightning]]
==== Eastern Lightning 全能神教會 (1991-)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Lightning
* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/全能神教會

A persecuted Christian sect that believes that some Chinese woman is Jesus.

[[gay-rights]]
=== Gay rights LGBT权利

Yes, gay people are also <<evil-west,discriminated to different degrees in Western countries>>, and even legally prohibited notably in the Islamic world.

But <<intolerance,like all minorities>>, they are generally more fucked in <<dictatorship,dictatorships>>, since they can be easily crushed by majorities.

Therefore, all gay people must be against the CCP:

* 2020-01-07 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/why-china-raising-prospect-same-sex-marriage-n1109471 "Why is China raising the prospect of same-sex marriage?"
* 2018 Weibo temporary homosexual ban:
** 2018-04-16 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/16/china-weibo-bans-homosexual-content-protest "China's Weibo reverses ban on 'homosexual' content after outcry", hashtags `#iamgay` and `#iamgaynotapervert`
** 2018-04-13 https://www.whatsonweibo.com/weibos-new-online-guidelines-no-homosexuality-allowed/
* 2017-07-16 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-40610679 "Chinese gay video ban sparks online backlash"
** 2017-06-30 https://www.whatsonweibo.com/new-rules-online-videos-china-no-displays-homosexuality/ "New Rules for Online Videos in China: "No Displays of Homosexuality""
* 2016-03-04 https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/mar/04/china-bans-gay-people-television-clampdown-xi-jinping-censorship "China bans depictions of gay people on television". One of the most prominent series banned was link:++https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addicted_(web_series)++[Addicted (2016, 上瘾)].
+
.Widely distributed still from the Addicted 2016 series which was banned showing a presumably gay couple lying in bed. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/mar/04/china-bans-gay-people-television-clampdown-xi-jinping-censorship[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200315112421if_/https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e46c18a434972d717b3aa03e8ea4ef835d1c1e31/318_0_1809_1086/master/1809.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=f358c97022133c523489fa55dbe7273b[height=400]

See also:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China | https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/中国同性恋史
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory | https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/各地LGBT权利
* <<gay-putin>>
* https://www.zhihu.com/question/370080866/answer/1046195468 at <<zhihu>>

.Lesbian couple kissing in <<tiananmen,Tiananmen Square>> with Mao's painting and confused/disgusted guards in the background who are likely about to call their superiors to ask what they should do. The photo likely surfaced in 2006 https://web.archive.org/web/20200301224434/https://www.salon.com/2006/01/17/lesbians_china/[as mentioned] in link:++https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(website)++[salon.com] which said it came form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boing_Boing[Boing Boing]. It was not however picked up by any major website. Ciro actually thought this could have been ripped from some television series due to the amazing expression on the guards' faces. TODO: find the original Chinese source, translate the watermarks, and see if their identity is known. https://web.archive.org/web/20200301223317/http://www.chinatoday.com/entertain/tiananmen_kiss.htm[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200301223317im_/http://www.chinatoday.com/entertain/china.funny.pictures/tiananmen.kiss_1.jpg[height=500]

.<<throne,Qing dynasty>> (18th–19th c.) panel from a scroll showing two men engaging in foreplay, apparently located in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Institute[Kinsey Institute] as of 2005. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Love_play_in_China.jpg[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Love_play_in_China.jpg[height=400]

[[falun-gong]]
=== Falun Gong 法輪大法

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/610_Office

<<flg-religion,Religion>> created in the '80s by a Chinese dude called <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>.

With the support of the Communist Party to Qigong movements, it reached 70 million believers in 1999, at which point the commies decided they had to be shut down and banned the religion.

Li fled to the USA and lives near New York, where he continues to run the religion as of 2020.

.Falun Gong believer arrested by police in Beijing <<tiananmen,Tiananmen Square>> in 15 August 2001. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TAM_Arrest4.jpg[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/TAM_Arrest4.jpg[height=500]

[[zone-theory]]
.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClvX7ED8UUI Tim and Eric's Zone Theory. If you want to stop <<falun-gong>>, don't put them in jail like the <<dictatorship,dictators>>. Do it the same way you stop dictators: with <<funny,comedy>>. Otherwise, the dictators remain in power, and <<intolerance,next person in jail, will be you>>.
video::ClvX7ED8UUI[youtube,width=600,height=400]

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwoO7Nekmpw&t=445 Christine Marie, founder of http://voicesfordignity.com/[Voices for Dignity] which takes care of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-Day_Saints[FLDS] leaves, was interviewed in VICE documentary "Polygamist Mafia: Escaping The Kingston Clan". While Ciro does not believe Falun Gong is as extreme as FLDS, he does really like the things Christine says. E.g., she calls "cult leaders" with the neutral <<flg-religion,religious>> form <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>, just like Ciro, and mentions the important fact that "And the another thing that the public doesn't realise, is that there are also beautiful thing within those communities". This is the mindset of <<intolerance,tolerance>> that the world needs.
video::GwoO7Nekmpw[youtube,height=400,width=600,start=445]

==== Falun Gong is not important to be worth discussing

The main reason Ciro Santilli emphasize FLG is that it shows how the CCP can mercilessly crush a 70M strong group (according to CCPs own statistics) out of a population of 1.3B in 2000, i.e. 5% of the population, and of course not because of <<flg-bias>>, since Ciro is completely and totally unbiased.

If that number is correct, Ciro wonders curious what you would consider an important movement? :-)

Anything much larger would take down the government and change China's history forever.

OK, maybe the fact that 69M of those were likely old ladies didn't help much either. Tip to next <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>: make something that appeals to aspiring military officers.

Let's try to gather some well sourced footage showing huge numbers of believers on the streets:

* https://www.aparchive.com/search?query=falun%20gong&from=1&orderBy=OldestFirst#7e34a6 AP Archive: could not find a good one there

.Thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in Guangzhou, China, 1998. https://www.theepochtimes.com/finding-the-balance-between-ancient-and-modern_2248694.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200315112422if_/https://img.theepochtimes.com/assets/uploads/2017/05/10/GuangzhouPractice_big-700x420.jpg[height=600]

.Thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in Liaoning Industrial Exhibition, China, likely 1998. https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2016/5/21/157091.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20191108081906im_/http://falunau.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/1a1744bca5595d8dc0c0aa3ca1280f04.jpg[height=600]

.Hundreds of Falun Gong believers in Chengdu, China, 1998. https://faluninfo.net/falun-gong-the-practice/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200315112422if_/https://faluninfo.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/chengdu.jpg[height=500]

==== Does Ciro Santilli believe in or practice Falun Gong?

No, Ciro is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism[agnostic] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/不可知论[不可知论]) and therefore believes that all the metaphysics that <<li-hongzhi>> says is bullshit.

Here are some things that he doesn't like about Falun Gong for example: <<things-ciro-santilli-dislikes-about-falun-gong>>.

Falun Gong can be split into two parts, like any other religion:

* the "self-help" "how to live well" part, including the physical exercises and meditation, which cannot be proven or disproven, like any other self-help and <<democracy-is-a-religion,political opinion>>
* the metaphysics, most notably, Li Hongzhi is a living God, and all other non verifiable things he claims like aliens, alternate dimensions, etc.: <<flg-verifiable>>

Ciro thinks that FLG's self-help part could be good for you, just like many other meditative practices such as Yoga, Buddhist meditation, Tai chi, deep Catholic prayer, etc.

However Ciro believes that the metaphysics is all complete and utter bullshit, child stories made up by Li Hongzhi, and just as real as Father Christmas or the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster[Flying Spaghetti Monster]. 

Also the "obligation to reach Salvation" is boring like for many other prophetic <<flg-religion,religion>>.

To Ciro it is obvious that Falun Gong is just one of the many very similar movements that came out of the Qi Gong Boom, such as: <<zhong-gong>>. It just happens to be the one that survived due to better luck and strategy.

The absolute truth is already known by the xref:li-hongzhi[prophet], although he does not want to give clear evidence for reasons: <<flg-verifiable>>, and Ciro finds that utterly boring. There's no fun in living in a world where the absolute truth has been found.

And you just repeat these truths over and over and over:

* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Aliens]
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-organized[You can support FLG by doing X and Y, it is not mandatory, but why wouldn't you since you are saving other people?]
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Alternate dimensions]
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-medication[Maybe FLG will make you healthier, but no promises, but it will make you a better person, and that's why you should do it, but if you really really believe, you get healthier]
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* Non-followers are like this, FLG people are like that. Although non-followers who do good things are actually doing FLG without knowing it. Note: FLG even has a specific terminology for non-believers, which is translated in English as https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/zfl_new_4.html["ordinary people"] (常人). Non-FLG people should call them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_psychology[abnormal people] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/異常心理學[异常人]) in return. Like other aspects of FLG however, this appears in other religions, e.g. my mother mentioned the funny term used by her Protestant's group term but Ciro forgot it, and you can see it in Harry Potter as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggle[The Muggles].
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* FLG is good
* xref:flg-religion[Final judgment]
* FLG is good
* <<is-chinese-politician-x-evil,the CCP is evil>>, not figuratively, but literally as in they are representatives of, or evil supernatural beings themselves. E.g. <<jiang-zemin>> is actually an evil frog in some alternate dimension, literally, not just memecally. The Chinese Government is literally responsible for creating <<corona,Covid-19>>. They give the CCP too much credit. The CCP are just a bunch of lazy and greedy people like you and me.

Ciro would really like to know if <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> really believes in FLG himself, or is just a complete manipulating charlatan, but unfortunately we will never know that. Just imagine if before he died he published a video saying: "it was a joke, gotcha!". Now that would be **epic**!

Since Ciro is good-natured, it's hard for him to believe that he doesn't believe in anything, how can anyone be that evil? Maybe he believes in part of it, but made up some stuff to sell it better, maybe with good intentions that selling the fake part would also lead more people to see the good part?

Like any other prophetic religion, FLG gives tiny evidence that you can directly feel through meditation. The energies, which Ciro believe are real feelings. And then using that entry point asks you to believe a whole lot more, that you can't feel: <<flg-verifiable>>.

This becomes especially strong when a critical mass of believers is reached, and then they start interpreting all sorts of events as miracles, and you start to believe other believers without questioning them, and a circle is formed.

This post by a former believer gives what Ciro feels is a realistic account that matches my observations: https://medium.com/@Ben_D_Hurley/-10677166298b "Me and Li" by Ben Hurley published on October 23, 2017.

And yet, all those who love freedom, must oppose FLG ban, or be themselves enslaved by tyrants themselves: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

In any case, at least FLG got one thing right: the commies are <<is-the-chinese-government-evil,evil>>, and we have to get rid of them.

See also: <<flg-fake>>.

===== How much does Ciro Santilli know about Falun Gong?

He hasn't read their <<flg-canon,canon>> himself, no patience, but he has had constant contact with believers and so has an idea of its content.

Ciro has summarized his thoughts about <<falun-gong>> at: <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong>>.

[[flg-canon]]
==== What are the canonical Falun Gong texts?

It appears that Falun Gong cannon is present at: https://falundafa.org/

It contains <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>'s approved texts/speech transcriptions, which are sacred.

The only sacred version is Chinese which is a sacred language, and of which there is only one perfect revision. Islam also appears to place great importance on the sacredness of Arabic in which Mohamed first spoke, perhaps even more: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/plight-uyghurs-why-muslims-wont-speak-their-brethren-112466 Protestants and later the Catholic church, have moved away from such really bad strategy however, the accessibility of Christianity is seen on the entrance of many many churches which have a sign "ALL are welcome". Well played.

<<ciro-santilli>> heard <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> claims the specifically chose to reincarnate in China this last time.

The English translation is made by followers, and gets new revisions to reduce translation imperfections.

However, the Chinese language seems to be fundamentally sacred, and there might never be a sacred English version approved by LHZ.

LHZ is of course a de-facto God with superpowers, and can of course speak all languages, but https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=for%20reasons[for reasons] he didn't just write an English translation himself.

This is a reasonable command to download the English cannon for grepping:

....
wget -r -l inf --no-remove-listing --no-clobber --no-parent -w 2 https://en.falundafa.org/falun-dafa-books.html
....

TODO: need to find a way to wrap lines, otherwise grep might fail on sentences.

But funnily the Canon books appear to all be copyrighted, likely "to avoid other people from modifying his sacred text", which is funny since the dude's the voice of absolute truth of the universe, but you still gotta copyright that I guess.

Nothing else is canonical. LHZ seems to have said that there are enlightened followers, but has not specified who, so we can't derive canon from anyone else.

Notably, <<flg-organized,FLG media>> such as https://www.minghui.org/ is believer led and thus not canonical, even though believers have very high confidence in it, and LHZ <<flg-organized,directly supports it>>.

==== Do you support FLG, or just use it because it is censored?

I don't support FLG specifically, only freedom of religion.

I use it in my usernames simply because it is the most banned and censored one in China today.

I believe that <<thoughtcrime,individuals should only be put in jail for what they do, not for what they believe>>.

I consider FLG <<flg-religion,a religion like any other>>, and I am against its ban, as I am for all other religions.

Also I believe that freedom of speech and democracy imply that FLG and other religions will exist. If you want freedom, you have to <<intolerance,accept other people's choices>>.

Otherwise, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy and communism can also be considered as religions>>, and banned.

See also: <<flg-verifiable>>.

[[flg-daily]]
==== How is it like to live with Falun Gong believers?

This will obviously vary from believer to believer, but here my experience.

Like any other religion that is taken seriously, they spend several hours per week doing their standard religious activities: <<flg-religion>>.

I never seen them, or anyone we know from FLG say or do something that I consider morally incorrect because of FLG.

This does not prevent <<wife,my wife>> from working normally.

My mother-in-law, who is retired, dedicates all her time to Falun Gong when she is not taking care of the house.

My mother is also religious (link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism[Protestant]), and I get a very similar feeling about both groups.

Like other religions, Falun Gong gives them meaning in life, and I admire that they pursue their belief energetically.

I much prefer that my mother-in-law does Falun Gong, which is a noble meaningful goal, rather than watch stupid crap on television.

Also, although I am <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>, I also live in a similar way.

My religion is that of science and technology, and I pursue it fervently by trying to learn and teach it and spend several hours a week doing that, even when it does not give me money immediately.

If I pursue my meaning, why should I prevent anyone from pursuing theirs?

Previously, my wife and mother-in-law would sometimes try to persuade me to learn FLG, which was annoying.

But every time I told them very clearly that I know where to download the books if I want to, and that I may never want to read them, and that my wife must either accept this fact or leave me.

And they have accepted that: they think I'm a good person, and they can accept that you can also be a good person even without doing FLG.

I do feel Falun Gong makes my mother-in-law more reluctant to use or actively search for <<flg-medication,medication or treatment>>. But I think it is also linked to the fact that she didn't have a very good education or a good health system around. However, if we give her something, she will take it. My wife does not have any resistance to medication.

One thing that does worry me is that my mother in law sleeps too little every night, doing one of the Falun Gong meditations late in the evening, and then waking up very early to a long series of reading and exercise sessions.

Bibliography:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/27659795 at <<zhihu>>

==== In the Tweet about his mother in law, Ciro Santilli says "correctional facility", but reeducation through labour has been abolished

He was not very precise https://twitter.com/cirosantilli/status/579270450984984576[here], the precise term is "jail". He was _not_ talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labor Unfortunately it is not possible to edit a Tweet.

[[flg-changed]]
==== Falun Gong is completely different in the West than it was in China

I believe that it has changed.

But isn't that the case of every cultural religious movement that migrates to a completely new culture?

Main points which may have changed:

* It has become more organized.
+
But why shouldn't they organize to defend themselves now that they have the chance without being put into prison?
+
The CCP is highly organized and has way more resources.
* Less emphasis is given to the religious/mystical aspect, and more to the corporal exercises, and health aspect.
+
This may be because people in the "West" are:
+
** are "scientific-educated" atheists who wouldn't go for a "religion"
** already have other religions, which would view FLG as a taboo

Also maybe only the richest and most educated believers managed to escape China, and thus the movement carried that bias outside China.

If you know more ways in which it may have changed, let me know.

But once again, we can know nothing for sure about the past in China because of censorship.

Even if you saw something yourself, how can you be sure that it is representative?

And if it has changed, now that it has changed, maybe China should unban it?

See also:

* https://www.zhihu.com/question/23988890 at <<zhihu>>

==== FLG has been funded by the US government at least once, therefore it is evil

1.5M USD in 2010 for a FLG controlled internet freedom group https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8678760.stm

But well, if you are going to do something anyway, and someone offers you money, why wouldn't you take it?

Taking the money does of course give a "bad impression" that someone is trying to buy influence, but does it in itself imply that you are doing something bad?

But do you really think that the US government paid that to buy influence in FLG? What would they force upon that FLG group that they didn't already want to do? Isn't it more likely that the US government wanted them to continue doing exactly what they were doing?

Every government funds groups it supports, it is an all out war I suppose. Compare that to the propaganda funds of the CCP.

What about the funding of political campaigns, which vastly outnumbers 1.5M USD every year?

[[follow-the-law]]
==== FLG is illegal in China, we must follow the law

This might be a bad law that should be changed.

It was perfectly legal for <<nazi,Nazis>> to kill Jews. Does it make that right?

[[flg-fake]]
==== FLG is fake 法轮功是假的

The same can be argued about any other religion or political belief of type: it is better if we organize society in this or that way.

How can you disprove their belief, when as in any other religion, every affirmation made hinges on "miracles only happen around when true believers are around" or "only true believers can perceive evidence in their hearts / minds directly". He died of cancer or <<corona>>? Not a true believer, deep withing his heart, something was wrong.

Conversely, do you understand the full sequence of experiments that imply quantum field theory? Have you seen videos of those experiments? Have you attended live demonstrations? Do you understand the construction of the experimentation apparatus? Yet, why do you believe it?

More importantly: what do you propose that should be done about it? Should we kill followers? Or is jail enough?

Also do let me know when you have achieved irrefutable proof that democracy/freedom of speech are the optimal ways to organize the government: <<democracy-is-a-religion>>.

See also: <<flg-religion>>

[[flg-verifiable]]
===== FLG never makes any predictions that can be reasonably verified by non-believers

Exactly, just like any other <<flg-religion>>, this is why Ciro Santilli is <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong,agnostic>>.

The closest claims to observable Ciro has heard are:

* when pictures are taken in sacred events, notably Shen Yun, sometimes you can see magic Falun energy wheels in the pictures
* in the homes of some followers, small magic good plants-like fungi-like things have grown
+
.Image of the magic good small plants that grew on a believer's home. They took a photo and it published on <<falun-gong-media,Minghui>> as a 2018 Chinese New Year good wish page to <<li-hongzhi>>. If any biologist reads this, for the love of God send me a Wikipedia page with the possible species. TODO transcribe the Chinese. https://en.minghui.org/html/articles/2018/2/17/168396p.html[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200312085051im_/http://en.minghui.org/u/article_images/e9c2b07e224d28984998a094deb53f85.jpg[height=400]
* the <<flg-canon,sacred books>> of some believers had a closed lotus flower when they were bought, and after several years, the flower opened

but Ciro suspects they are not even <<flg-canon,canon>>, just believer oral culture.

Of course, like every other religion, reality happens to be is constructed in a way that prevents non-believers to verify anything with their eyes in a reproducible way.

Or a Jesus put it in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+4&version=NIV[Luke 4]:

[[luke-4]]
____
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:

“'He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
____

Ah good old prophets, their tricks haven't changed a bit in 2 thousand years! This is why <<ciro-santilli>> follows instead the religion of <<democracy-is-a-religion,science and freedom of speech>>: those religions instead say: test your God. Test your God a billion times. And if your God proves wrong just once, disbelieve it.

The Pontius Pilate Scene from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)[The Last Temptation of Christ (1988)] comes to mind, quotes:

____
Pontius: It's also said that you do miracles? Is this good magic or bad magic? Can we have some sort of demonstration?

Jesus: No, I'm not a trained animal, I'm not a magician.

Pontius: Well, that's disappointing. This means that you are just another Jewish politician.
____

and:

____
Pontius: It's one way to change the way that people live, but you want to change the way that they think and that they feel.

Jesus: All I'm saying is the change will happen with love. Not with killing.

Pontius: Either way it's dangerous. It's against Rome. It's against the way the world is. In killing or loving, it's all the same. It simply doesn't matter how you want to change things, we don't want them changed.
____

.https://youtube.com/watch?v=pXGsio9H1xs The Last Temptation of Christ (1988) - Pontius Pilate Scene (5/10) | Movieclips.
video::pXGsio9H1xs[youtube,height=400,width=600]

[[flg-cult]]
===== FLG is a very new religion and therefore fake

The Romans called <<christianity>> the "Cult of Jesus".

If I tell a lie today, will it become true in a thousand years? Or a truth today become a lie?

Try sending an email to <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> asking him to <<flg-verifiable,prove his powers to you>> :-)

[[against-censorship-and-flg]]
==== Many people both are against censorship and FLG

Ciro know that, and that supporting FLG is "bad" for his public image with most Chinese, including those that are against censorship.

But <<dictator-needs-gfw,without censorship, there will be democracy>>, and with democracy FLG followers will have voting rights, and FLG will become legal.

Ciro thinks that the situation is very similar to <<flg-religion,Scientology>> in the USA today: most people dislike it, but believe that you can believe whatever you want.

Democracy and Communism <<democracy-is-a-religion,can also be considered as religions and persecuted>>.

Isn't it convenient when a dictatorship gets rid of those weirdos for you? But not so much when suddenly you or your family is the weirdo...

If you are not ready to accept the beliefs of others, dictatorship is the only choice for you.

It is also interesting to note how Falun Gong is a good source of <<censorship-circumvention>> material.

See also: <<flg-bias>>

[[democracy-is-a-religion]]
===== Why do you say that democracy is a religion just like FLG?

Because it also specifies irrational and fundamental aspects of how one should live, notably voting and freedom of speech.

Like the Cult of CCP has one fundamental belief: <<stability,the Party is always right>>, or as mentioned in <<orange-papers>> section "The Guru is always right." (highlight by Ciro):

____
The Guru, his church, and his teachings are always right, and above criticism, and beyond reproach.

In some cults, the guru is dead, but the principle is the same. I use the word "guru" loosely here; in many cults the charismatic leader has the title of minister, priest, yogi, swami, prophet, or all-knowing wise man. **Or even, "Chairman Mao."** In any case, the leader is always right.
____

And they also claim that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous[Alcoholics Anonymous] could be characterized as a cult. Very cool. What else could get you off an addiction, right?

Ban FLG, and you have banned democracy.

Accept democracy, and you will have FLG.

[[flg-stability]]
===== Falun Gong had to be banned because it was a threat to the stability of the country

Then they link to the Taping Rebellion:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom

Of course FLG was a threat to the stability of the country.

It is, as <<ciro-santilli>> has said, a highly organized political power: <<flg-political>>.

However, <<democracy-is-a-religion,democracy>> is a threat to the stability country in the exact same way:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

Anything that goes against a dictatorship is a threat to the stability of the country.

Now read: <<stability>>

==== Many people say they do FLG only to get VISAs to the USA

<<ciro-santilli>> heard this a few times, and I believe it has happened.

But I don't see how this is relevant at all to this discussion:

* if they are not really FLG believers, they should be prosecuted, but this says nothing about the real FLG believers,
* if they are, then why wouldn't they seek a VISA, since they are in constant threat of going to jail or worse in China, and the USA law gives them that right?

Sample news:

* https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/09/28/652218318/thousands-could-be-deported-as-government-targets-asylum-mills-clients

[[flg-witness]]
==== I have personally seen people do bad things because of Falun Gong

Either direct suicide or <<flg-medication,dying because of not taking medication>>.

First, I'm not saying I don't believe you, and I'm sorry about what happened.

But your testimony is worthless unless you give the following:

* clear unique personal identification
+
This is because the CCP has thousands of <<wumao,wumaos>> who could make fake reports.
+
There are basically two ways to do that:
+
. your testimony is done in video form on YouTube clearly showing your face as you make it
. links between a notable social media presence that is hard to achieve, e.g. Twitter with many followers, Stack overflow with a lot of rep, and the account
+
Either of those must contain / link to information that uniquely identifies you. Generally, full name, city and date of birth is enough.
* a precise testimony that states exactly what you saw happen with your own eyes, or heard from people that are very close to you.
+
The testimony must include:
+
--
** when the events happened
** where they happened, in which city at the very least
** the full names of who did what
--
+
This is to:
+
** make it easier to verify the truth of the event
** uniquely identify the event so we don't count a single event multiple times

If you do provide all of the above, I add your report to a list of reports that I will maintain. This list does not exist yet because there were no valid reports yet.

Next consider this:

* are you sure that Falun Gong made the person do the bad thing, and that the person wouldn't have done it anyway?
+
Did someone from Falun Gong told the person to do it?
+
I bet that if you look into patients of psychiatrists, you will find more suicides than average. So should we ban psychiatry?
* are you sure that the order came from <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>>, and that it was not just some disgruntled local leader using Falun Gong for his personal madness and doing things he did not approve?
+
Branch Davidians were inspired by <<christianity>>. So should we ban Christianity? What about the majority of Christians who have never done anything bad?
* only statistics have any meaning, and it would require a very large number of reports to make up statistics, so you will likely be wasting your time. I will do my part and maintain a list however.
* if we ask for FLG believers to compile a list of horrors they have suffered, which they have already been doing since the start of the persecution, I bet that their list will be much longer than yours, because they are so <<flg-organized,well organized>>

[[flg-persecution]]
==== FLG does not have proof of their persecution claims

How much proof do you think they would be able to get when there is no freedom of the press?

Do you think that forbidding a <<falun-gong-is-not-important-to-be-worth-discussing,70 million>> person religion could have gone smoothly?

Do you think the thousands of personal accounts of human rights violations that exist are all fake, and don't indicate that many, many more have taken place but fallen under censorship?

Conversely, there is no reliable proof that FLG is bad as claimed by CCP that has been verified by international media.

[[thoughtcrime]]
==== Someone from movement X did something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

By this logic, everyone should go to jail. The law should only punish individuals.

The communist party, which has had continuous power since 1949, killed millions during the <<cultural-revolution>>. Surely they must be banned, no?

But the CCP has changed so much since those days, I hear you say.

I agree. And <<flg-changed,so has FLG>>.

See also: "thoughtcrime" from <<nineteen-eighty-four>>.

Or if you like shitty movies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)[Minority Report (2002)].

===== Movement X tells people to do something bad, therefore the movement should be banned

E.g. kill.

Yes, convincing someone to do something bad is as bad as doing it yourself of course, and must be forbidden.

Now proceed to prove that FLG made and will continue making people do bad things, going through:

* <<flg-witness>>
* <<flg-changed>>

[[flg-political]]
==== People from movement X are only in it for political power

For every desire of the masses, there will be amoral representatives that will step to use that power.

Still, those representatives cannot gain power if there is no backing desire from society.

The only advantage of <<richer,democracy>>, is that those representatives have to pretend harder to do things for that group to retain their power.

[[flg-trump]]
===== FLG supports Donald Trump 法轮功支持特朗普

<<ciro-santilli>> believes he has heard praises to Trump directly in <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>>'s speeches, but could not find a source.

Also, the <<flg-organized,Epoch Times Falun Gong controlled newspaper>> has donated: $1.5 million https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/trump-qanon-impending-judgment-day-behind-facebook-fueled-rise-epoch-n1044121

But of course, so long as those respect the laws of the country, they are free to do it and must not be interfered. As if other major American media didn't have political agendas.

It is therefore extremely likely that 99.999% of Falun Gong believers also support Trump.

This is exactly the same, in fact, as <<flg-religion,Christian groups>> which always gather behind "the right".

In the case of the Falun Gong however, Trump has been vocal about China's threat, and therefore is a much needed ally of the movement.

Trump's immigration policies have turned Asian Americans towards the democrat opposition however as of 2019: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/13/18308137/asian-american-voters-immigration-democrats-donald-trump

One saving point of the republicans for Asians is the opposition to university quotas instance, which many Asians feel blocks their high performing kids from top schools for less deserving Black students. This also plays into possible cross Asian-Black racism tensions.

==== Western media has exaggerated reports on FLG for propaganda reasons

Possibly true, but which reports are you talking about specifically?

All that I care about is:

* it is censored today
* if you do it you go to jail
* there were tens of millions of followers at the time of the ban

which I think are undeniable.

The only question that matters is: should it be banned or not?

==== Do you believe in the allegations of human rights violations done to Falun Gong believers?

Let's just focus on the evidence:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CedVnJOgwg4 "Undercover video reveals brutal treatment of Falun Gong prisoners inside Chinese labor camps" by "FOX 11 Los Angeles" published May 21, 2019. Names mentioned: Fuquan Yin,

===== Do you believe in the allegations of organ harvesting made by Falun Gong believers?

In short: I believe that it has happened to many people.

Long version:

It is obviously very hard to prove and quantify it definitely, much like it was hard to prove the Holocaust: bodies were cremated, and bribes were paid.

Even if we had a video showing the whole process, showing the whole money flow from the donor to the prison guard, it would still be hard to quantify it, so I do have some room for doubt in this opinion.

But consider the following, which is based on what I heard.

Even Chinese officials have admitted that in the past, if the body of the executed person is not claimed by family, then the organs can be extracted even without the consent of the prisoner:

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/07/china-still-using-executed-prisoners-organs-transplants-vatican
* https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-face-of-criticism-china-has-been-cleaning-up-its-organ-transplant-industry/2017/09/14/d689444e-e1a2-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html

Perhaps now that they claim that there is a large voluntary organ donor database, then this has stopped or been reduced, but let's focus on that period when the extractions were widely done.

From this, even though China does not publish execution statistics, we can imagine that a large part of the organs come from prisoners sentenced to death.

Then, consider that a <<falun-gong-is-not-important-to-be-worth-discussing,70 million>> person religion was banned, leading to a huge influx of prisoners from that religion.

FLG followers are just de-facto criminals like any other, and so extracting their organs is also de-facto legal.

Also, people from that religion don't drink alcohol, smoke or take drugs, and their organs are of good quality.

Furthermore, FLG prisoners continue to not bow down to the government even in prison, e.g. by doing their <<flg-religion,Falun Gong meditation>>, which makes them clearly identifiable and dangerous to the system.

Finally, add to that mix the huge level of corruption found in dictatorships.

Don't you think, then, that it is extremely likely that it has happened many times that such people have been selected to be executed earlier than others on average, due to the monetary value of their organs?

Bibliography:

* https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6 (https://web.archive.org/web/20191118135832/https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0406-6[archive]) "Analysis of official deceased organ donation data casts doubt on the credibility of China’s organ transplant reform" by Matthew P. Robertson, Raymond L. Hinde and Jacob Lavee published at "BMC Medical Ethics" which is part of Springer Nature in 14 November 2019
* The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China's Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ethan Gutmann, 2014
** <https://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Killings-Harvesting-Solution-Dissident/dp/161614940X>
** <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Gutmann#The_Slaughter:_Mass_Killings,_Organ_Harvesting,_and_China's_Secret_Solution_to_Its_Dissident_Problem>

====== 2018 China Tribunal

2018 https://chinatribunal.com/

This is a mock tribunal, without any power of law, and was of course initially lobbied/organized brought up by FLG: https://endtransplantabuse.org/

However, Ciro Santilli believes that none of the lawyers / jury members are FLG believers, and that they are trying to honestly decide if there is enough evidence or not for organ harvesting in China.

They also have non-FLG witnesses.

Whether you believe in their partiality or not, I highly recommend watching some of what the witnesses, which I find very convincing and informative:

* https://youtu.be/oW3IaaXWE8s?t=7225 Swedish man who spent several years in prison in China

A notable precursor to mock tribunals is the link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Tribunal[Russel Tribunal].

Bibliography:

* Dr. Enver Tothi, has spoken openly about his organ harvesting activities in the 1990s in several tribunals in Europe
** 2020 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/surgeon-who-harvested-organs-slaughtered-21040274 "Surgeon who harvested organs of slaughtered dissident now London Uber driver"
** 2019 in EU parliament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n-9n897jIo
** 2017 Him speaking in : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY at Ireland's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoXKMw4slHY[House of the Oireachtas]

==== Falun Gong overviews

Some possibly neutral overviews.

For:

* https://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-prc-and-falun-gong-langone

Against:

* https://www.culteducation.com/group/1254-falun-gong.html

==== Things Ciro Santilli dislikes about Falun Gong

But also as explaining why I don't think it justifies the ban.

This section also gives me more credibility as a balanced critic >:-)

[[flg-religion]]
===== FLG downplays the fact that it is a religion

If asked if they follow a religion, most FLG believers will say "no".

E.g. they call themselves "practitioners" or "students" (学员) instead of "believers", and their peers "practitioner colleagues" (https://baike.baidu.com/item/同修[同修]). And if you say you don't believe in their FLG metaphysics bullshit, they will often reply "he does not understand". To them, it is not about belief, the truth is clear, and you just don't see it yet. To this you should reply: "and you don't understand that <<li-hongzhi,Li Hongzhi>> is a master manipulator dude who deceived you and millions of others".

But Ciro Santilli strongly believes that this is just a language barrier/FLG propaganda question (see also "Different levels of truth" from <<orange-papers>>), and that people in the West would classify FLG as a religion if they are told that for FLG:

* absolute truth comes from an enlightened <<li-hongzhi,prophet>>, who is perfect and has superhuman abilities
* weekly meetings (学法 "study the law (of the universe (of <<li-hongzhi>>))"）where they read from a <<flg-canon,sacred book>>, either written by the prophet, or transcribed from his presentations to disciples, including the disciples questions, much like traditional Chinese texts like link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analects[The Analects of Confucius], just like Christians read from the Bible over and over again.
+
In both cases, some believers claim that sometimes even reading the same text again gives them new insight.
* prescribed daily meditation exercise hours, somewhat like Muslim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah[Salah] prayers which they call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazhengnian[发正念 (fa1 zheng4 nian4)], which means "send righteous thoughts". They seem to believe that this meditation helps external good magic things happen, so it is half meditation half prayer.
* longer "less mandatory" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong[Qigong-like] (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/气功[气功]) exercises followed by a meditation (打坐) and which they collectively call https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/修道_(道教)[修炼] "practice austerities". note that this term is borrowed from Taoism but possibly with different precise meaning. There are exactly 5 exercises (meditation being the fifth) some with a fun supernatural name:
** Buddha Stretching a Thousand Arms
** Falun Standing Stance
** Penetrating the Cosmic Extremes
** Falun Cosmic Orbit
* higher intelligent beings
* other dimensions, which some select people with vision superpowers can see
* aliens that look like humans are amongst us, they gave us part of our modern technology, some are evil, others not so evil
* meetings in which people tell their religious testimonies ("experience sharing" TODO Chinese name, possibly just "分享修炼的美好", e.g. https://www.minghui.org/mh/articles/2015/9/29/分享修炼的美好-印尼召开修炼心得交流会（图）-316838.html[source]): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony#Religion
* an impending link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment[final judgment]-like event, which will happen "very soon" (<<flg-verifiable,unspecified date>>), and in which the just will be rewarded
+
I predict that when <<li-hongzhi>> dies, the claim will be that he went to another dimension so save us all, therefore putting this final judgment on hold, a bit like Jesus.
* link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-air_preaching[street preaching] (http://www.minghui.org/mh/glossary.html[讲真相] "truth-telling") with stands and leaflets on the streets exactly like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses[Jehovah's Witnesses].
+
The Falun Gong organization also specifies guidelines on how to preach, although these might not be <<flg-canon,canon>>, even though if they are not, it is extremely likely that <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> is directly involved in their specification
+
Falun Gong has also used <<flg-telemarketing,phone call preaching>>.
+
All of this is part of their effort to "save people (救人)", i.e. convert them to Falun Gong.

Or a <<flg-cult,cult>>, which is nothing but a new/small religion with negative connotation, and thus meaningless.

FLG is very similar to Scientology in Ciro's view: a new religion that mixes elements of both old and new. And just like any other religion, <<democracy-is-a-religion,their practice must be allowed>>.

But consider this: how to classify what a religion is?

Some would answer: science is what every one can perceive with their own senses.

But FLG followers claim to feel FLG energies when doing the exercises, and a few of them have the power of seeing the other dimensions.

On the other hand, how many of your friends have experienced the laws of quantum field theory or general relativity in a very direct way?

And aren't pro-democracy believers also taking actions based solely on a shared belief, possibly organized by a pro-democracy leader?

From a purely strategic point of view, the "religion" denomination would be:

* good to FLG because the concept of freedom of religion carries considerable weight in the West
* bad for FLG because people who already have a religion would be less likely to try it out and start believing
+
Falun Gong's recruitment strategy is to focus on the exercises first, and in particular its <<flg-medication,health benefits>> and then as some people start to feel things, they start introducing the metaphysics.

See also: "Different levels of truth" from <<orange-papers>>.

See also: <<flg-daily>>.

====== Orange Papers

https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

Down as of 2020-04, https://web.archive.org/web/20160205090248/https://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html[2016-02-05 archive]

This is an amazing website talking about Cults and many other things! TODO who is the author? Copyright says by "A. Orange". Is it the real name, or just a pun for "I ate an orange"?

And the website also has a Free Tibet flag at the bottom.

Many of the points highlighted at  are very very interesting and Ciro feels that they apply strongly to <<falun-gong>>:

* "Instant Community" and "Instant intimacy": you instantly join the cult family, and are very very likely to believe or at least consider anything anyone else in the cult says about their religious experiences, no matter how far-fetched, even though it is not <<flg-canon,canon>>
+
Conversely, this also poses a risk for the Cult Leader, as new community ideas can spread very quickly, and if you try to fight them off, they might create a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism[Schism].
* "Cult-speak": see also "Newspeak" from <<nineteen-eighty-four>> and some common Falun Gong Cult-speak see: <<flg-religion>>
* "Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions, groups, or organizations": yes, <<li-hongzhi>> does this all the time, see: <<zhong-gong>>
* "Personal testimonies of earlier converts": see "experience sharing" at <<flg-religion>>
* "The group and its members are special", "Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider": see: "ordinary people (常人)" at <<does-ciro-santilli-believe-in-or-practice-falun-gong>>
* "Making cult members work long hours for free": yes, many FLG members work long long hours for free. Why wouldn't you if you are saving people's souls?
* "No Humor": see also <<funny>>
* "Different Levels of Truth", "Deceptive Recruiting": Falun Gong people don't talk freely about their funny beliefs like <<flg-religion,aliens are amongst us>> to outsiders. Rather, they lure you in with the exercises first. Ciro has personally heard the following said many times: "you should not tell this to non-believers, they are not ready for this truth yet".
* "Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists": <<falun-gong-media>>
* "Promised Powers or Knowledge" and "It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies": they seem to believe in a <<flg-religion,Judgement Day like event>> and <<flg-medication,health benefits>>
* "The Guru is always right", "You are always wrong", "No Graduates", "The Guru Is Extra-Special", "Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around", "The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.": obviously: <<li-hongzhi>>
** "Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking"

There are also however some points which Ciro feels don't apply, and Ciro praises Falun Gong for those:

* "Dual Purposes": not much of that, most of their propaganda is "we are persecuted unfairly by China", not "let's help the poor"
* "The End Justifies The Means": Li has made it clear that believers must follow the laws of their countries. Cults that violate this tend to not last as long, this is the smart move for cult leaders.

And some points which Ciro feels apply which were mentioned in some other article, (or maybe in Orange Papers but he couldn't find them, TODO find reference?)

* "No time for fun": how could you possibly spend leisure time watching television, etc. when you could be saving the world instead?
* "Focus on the persecution of the Cult": while obviously people who have been persecuted have the right, and almost an obligation, to look for help and share their stories, it is also clear that this is a selling point for the Cult.
+
Why would a nation state attack a Cult? This could give the impression that it is because there is something powerful and true in the Cult, and actually menaces this nation state.
+
For example, Falun Gong puts huge emphasis on its persecution in China, much like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr[Martyrdom] of the Catholic Saints is highly emphasised.

This is especially interesting, because the website does not mention Falun Gong at all it seems: it really seems that all those cults are very similar.

It should also be mentioned though that these points extend to any type of human organization, e.g. <<flg-religion,other religions>>, <<democracy-is-a-religion,political parties>>, job associations, etc.

[[flg-organized]]
===== FLG downplays the fact that it is highly organized

Many FLG practitioners claim that they are not at all organized, or that they have no political interest, and I truly believe that they mean it.

But it is obvious from the size of the <<falun-gong-media>>, namely:

* NDTV Television Network
* Epoch Times newspaper
* Shen Yun

that in practice they do have are a highly organized hierarchical structure, and very likely with <<li-hongzhi,LHZ>> at the very top, e.g.:

* Shen Yun's 2018 libretto says that their Artistic Director and founder is "D.F." (likely an abbreviation for Da Fa, which is an abbreviation for Falun Gong Dafa, which is a full name of Falun Gong), with a picture of LHZ on top. It also amusingly says that D.F. is a "Distinguished Professor of Music and Dance at Fei Tian College in New York", which is likely where many of Shen Yun's dancers are trained, and therefore controlled by himself to a large extent
* LHZ mentions NDTV, Epoch Times and Shen Yun extensively on his <<flg-canon>>. TODO link to source, this based on unintentionally overhearing to my family members reading it.

Furthermore, Falun Gong practitioners directly lobby foreign governments to take action against human rights abuses in China, e.g.:

* https://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+MOTION+P7-RC-2013-0562+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN
* https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-court-cisco-must-be-held-accountable-aiding-chinas-human-rights-abuses

Like any other religion, they have all the right to take those actions, and it is definitely in their best interest, and perhaps in the best interest of the whole world, that they do so.

The only thing that annoys me is their lack of self perception on this matter: the large majority of Western people would definitely classify them as an organized political force after having observed their activities. When they say otherwise, they are hurting their own credibility.

[[flg-transparent]]
====== FLG media is not transparent about its affiliation

Agreed, and it is a point that hurts more than helps their cause.

But the media is not legally obliged to state their affiliation.

And if that were the case, then we should force _all_ newspapers to start taking polls of how many employees follow which religion and support which political party, and then put that in their print.

[[flg-intolerance]]
===== FLG dislikes several other groups like homosexuals and some other religions

Like most <<flg-religion,old religions>>.

Democracy dislikes dictators.

You and I dislike certain personality traits without any logical reason.

What matters is that we treat everyone with respect and without bias at work, even if we don't like them.

But the law can't force you to like everyone.

If one specific FLG member breaks a law by discriminating against someone, they should be punished just like anyone else.

See also:

* <<intolerance>>
* <<gay-rights>>

[[flg-medication]]
===== FLG believers are less likely to take necessary medication

Due to their beliefs in the healing power of FLG, which seems to have a certain level of support on <<flg-canon,canonical texts>> TODO precise quotes.

This is a point that makes me worry, and I do believe that it is true for some believers, that but consider:

* what matters are statistics. Maybe FLG people live longer than non FLG in average. But we will never have statistics because of censorship: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/27529/have-many-falun-gong-practitioners-forgone-medical-treatment-and-died-of-treatab
* maybe people should be link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation[allowed to choose how they want to die], not to take medication if they don't want to
* maybe the number of people killed during persecution vastly outnumbers those who died because they would not take medication
* several religions, including <<christianity>> have miraculous cure claims. My impression is that claims were mostly notable in the old times apparently, likely because people noticed that Christians were still dying of all kinds of diseases like everyone else, no matter how devout!
* maybe the main reason why communists banned FLG is the political threat it posed, but that a ban was unjustified given the situation. Christian crosses are being taken down as of 2016, have they stopped taking their medications as well?
* maybe many of those people would also have died soon even if they had taken medication
* maybe not all Falun Gong believers thought that it was wise to stop taking medication. But their religion was banned anyway. Who can agree and follow all the innumerable prescriptions of any religious or legal system?
* all the following also reduce people's lifespan:
+
--
** riding motorcycles vs. cars/buses
** smoking
** moving to a poor country to do charity there
** eating fast food
--
+
Forbidding them also has huge humanitarian costs (more expensive vehicles, creation of a black market, ...). So why not forbid them as well?

See also: <<orange-papers>> "Promised Powers or Knowledge".

[[li-hongzhi]]
===== FLG is dangerous because Li Hongzhi has too much power over followers 李洪志

Li Hongzhi (LHZ, 李洪志) is the creator of FLG: link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi[].

Falun Gong people call him "master" (师傅), which is a common traditional term used to respectfully address experienced teachers in a disciple (弟子)/teacher relation, e.g. Kung Fu or other crafts.

The term "master" is also used for example in the fictional film The Master (2012), which is likely inspired in <<flg-religion,Scientology>>.

<<ciro-santilli>> prefers to call him <<flg-religion,prophet>>, since he feels LHZ is indistinguishable from <<flg-religion,any other religion>>.

Ciro agrees that there is danger in every religion, and especially new religions.

However the same point can be made about political parties and in particular the CCP and its chairman.

Couldn't a charismatic leader chairman gain more and more power (like Xi seems to be doing), and eventually start a war and kill millions? Or just kill some minority who is not happy about the situation.

Similarly, any charismatic leader of a pro-democracy movement could become the leader of a terrorist organization.

If you ever want democracy, you will have to learn to accept the beliefs of others, and only punish them when they actually break a law.

Finally, LHZ was born in 1951, so he will die in 20 years, unless FLG is true and a miracle happens, and then this argument will become invalid.

From what Ciro hears, LHZ has always maintained that he is the only source of truth on FLG (see also "The Guru is always right"), and therefore, so his death will very likely remove any danger once and for all.

Furthermore, it also seems to Ciro that FLG is clearly anti-violence and self-harm, so Ciro wonder how many would follow a contradictory order such as killing or suicide? We have had no hint of any incitation to violence so far.

It is also interesting to look into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown case. When the suicide order came, most people wanted out! Without physically controlling the followers, I don't think you can make them do much.

It's funny that even though those events happened only 30 years ago, we know about Li just about as much as we know about Jesus! The only things which we can really picture in detail how they are are the well known locations themselves.

.Li Hongzhi is Falun Gong's prophet/cult leader/living God. He's a cute north-Western 东北人 like <<wife,Ciro's wife>>. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Li_Hongzhi_1.jpg[height=400]

.Li Hongzhi practicing one of his exercises with one of his cute prophet outfits in an extremely nice Chinese <<does-ciro-santilli-hate-china,stone garden>>. TODO exact location and date. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Li_Hongzhi_Falun_Gong.jpg[Source].
image::https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Li_Hongzhi_Falun_Gong.jpg[height=600]

.Li going https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan[Super Saiyan] while casually sitting on a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_lotus_in_religious_art[giant Lotus flower] with a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(religious_iconography)[halo] on his head. https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/8022105562347289/[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200226083545/https://i.pinimg.com/564x/32/fc/95/32fc954e99d658751da18a0b20ae2894.jpg[height=600]

.Dubstep Li can liangong at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubstep[dubstep] speed. https://giphy.com/gifs/dubstep-gifs-dubstepgifs-xUOwFY1prqgUdPuFvW[Source].
image::https://web.archive.org/web/20200229161316if_/https://i.giphy.com/media/xUOwFY1prqgUdPuFvW/giphy.webp[height=400]

====== Let's make a mini series about Li Hongzhi's life

Ciro can't help but to imagine how Falun Gong came about in detail.